Today there is no free internet. In US you can't upload anything that violates DMCA. US also seized Iran's domains like presstv.com . In Korea I believe they've banned most pr0n websites. Most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons.
Shadowsocks and wireguard will only generate traffic when there is an actual need.
If the has has a lot of traffic, it'll be blocked; regardless what protocol you are using; e.g., shadowsocks, wg, etc. Thus, wg and shadowsocks are not perfect.
Only if you run an "airport", or use it to download constantly.
Nothing is perfect, and wg and ss has severely affected the GFW's ability to do packet inspection, that's why they switched to other tactics.
You know there's a difference between example and Slippery Slope Fallacy, right?
I made the claim "there is no free internet" first, and then I gave two examples. It's not the case that I use two examples to conclude "there is no free internet." I can give you more examples; for instance, no country in this world allows child p0rn.
Also this is not Whataboutism. Again they are examples to support the claim "there is no free internet." I didn't use internet censorship in the US or other countries to support the claim that internet censorship in China is right. In fact I think China's censorship is too strict.
I have stated clearly "most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons." This is my answer to the question "why china don't give freedom about the internet"
Shadowsocks and wireguard will only generate traffic when there is an actual need.
If the has has a lot of traffic, it'll be blocked; regardless what protocol you are using; e.g., shadowsocks, wg, etc. Thus, wg and shadowsocks are not perfect.
Makes sense. If a regular IP hosting normal content suddenly starts getting a lot of traffic, there is definitely something shady going on...
@dinopotato said:
Hi,i just wonder about why china don't give freedom about the internet, i just wondering
Today there is no free internet. In US you can't upload anything that violates DMCA. US also seized Iran's domains like presstv.com . In Korea I believe they've banned most pr0n websites. Most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons.
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
I agree about all country can be ban/not allow killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc., but why china can ban Google and Social media?, also in some router can be have Filtering Adult Content for Kids about these.
I don't agree about china block Google, Google also have safe search setting, it's can be turn on
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
I agree about all country can be ban/not allow killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc., but why china can ban Google and Social media?, also in some router can be have Filtering Adult Content for Kids about these.
I don't agree about china block Google, Google also have safe search setting, it's can be turn on
Imagine go to china without google traslate
Because google doesn't follow china Gov censor recommend. It only follows the US Gov.
Most first world countries do not allow DMCA or copyright violation. Many third word countries do not care about such things.
Many asian and muslim countries banns adult contents.
Most countries censor political contents.
All countries bans killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc.
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
@ccc said:
Imagine go to china without google traslate
Use outlook / live.com for e-mail.
Use baidu maps for getting around. Google maps works in China, but due to GPS reasons, all the maps are about 100m wrong.
Realise that social media is for dweebs and you don't need it anyway.
Install wechat on your phone - you can always add people on there (as everyone uses it) and use its inbuilt message translation for complicated conversations.
Learn some basic phrases before you go and take a calculator for price negotiations. This is really useful to help you understand the price they are saying.
If you don't want to learn Chinese, visit Shanghai where many people manage to live for years without any attempt to learn.
@root said:
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
I do not agree with you there. US promotes openness and thus they promote openness even through behind the scene they are the same with censoring and disregard for data privacy. China promotes closed door policy and their public face is also the same.
If you want your data to be shared by the governments AND the top companies AND/OR anyone who has money to pay, follow US.
If you want your data to be shared only by the governments follow China.
The people living in china behind the firewall are happier then people outside it. Afterall, ignorance is bliss...
@ccc said:
Imagine go to china without google traslate
Use outlook / live.com for e-mail.
Use baidu maps for getting around. Google maps works in China, but due to GPS reasons, all the maps are about 100m wrong.
Realise that social media is for dweebs and you don't need it anyway.
Install wechat on your phone - you can always add people on there (as everyone uses it) and use its inbuilt message translation for complicated conversations.
Learn some basic phrases before you go and take a calculator for price negotiations. This is really useful to help you understand the price they are saying.
If you don't want to learn Chinese, visit Shanghai where many people manage to live for years without any attempt to learn.
Wechat is also used for payments. Baidu for video sharing. And you can ofcourse hire translators/guides at a very cheap price when you go over.
Google search was blocked since 2014 because Google couldn't accommodate requests from Chinese government. I've heard part of the reason is that Google needs a court order to remove content; but in China they get a lot of requests from the communist party, not from the court. China has a different political system and some rules won't apply there...
social media platforms like twitter and facebook were blocked for inciting the 2009 Urumuqi riots in Xinjiang (which resulting in about 200 deaths and over one thousand injuries) and have not been unblocked.
These tech giants tried to re-enter China with censored version of their products, but they never made it. I guess it's because Chinese government wants to promote Chinese substitutes like Weibo and Baidu
Google search was blocked since 2014 because Google couldn't accommodate requests from Chinese government. I've heard part of the reason is that Google needs a court order to remove content; but in China they get a lot of requests from the communist party, not from the court. China has a different political system and some rules won't apply there...
social media platforms like twitter and facebook were blocked for inciting the 2009 Urumuqi riots in Xinjiang (which resulting in about 200 deaths and over one thousand injuries) and have not been unblocked.
These tech giants tried to re-enter China with censored version of their products, but they never made it. I guess it's because Chinese government wants to promote Chinese substitutes like Weibo and Baidu
Better way for go to china without google traslate is learn chiniese
@root said:
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
I do not agree with you there. US promotes openness and thus they promote openness even through behind the scene they are the same with censoring and disregard for data privacy. China promotes closed door policy and their public face is also the same.
You are partially right. The censoring is done to a certain degree; the disregard for data privacy is only on top levels. We know it, we adapted to it, and it is not that bad once you realise it. There are limitations to what government can do: look at protest in France as an example.
If you want your data to be shared by the governments AND the top companies AND/OR anyone who has money to pay, follow US.
Yet China is also ruled by corporations who have money to pay. They get the best internet, and uncensored.
If you want your data to be shared only by the governments follow China.
True, but partially; because government of China is also ruled behind it by the rich.
The people living in china behind the firewall are happier then people outside it.
Yeah, right. They are happy trying to access porn like others do. And while they bypass the firewall, they totally care for their privacy.
Afterall, ignorance is bliss...
Let's not be hypocritical. There is no perfect system. After thousands of years of evolution we still have not managed to eliminate greed through any political system. If you consider yourself a perfect leader to rule the world, then I am ignorant indeed.
"In times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers." - history taught us this much.
@root said:
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
I do not agree with you there. US promotes openness and thus they promote openness even through behind the scene they are the same with censoring and disregard for data privacy. China promotes closed door policy and their public face is also the same.
You are partially right. The censoring is done to a certain degree; the disregard for data privacy is only on top levels. We know it, we adapted to it, and it is not that bad once you realise it. There are limitations to what government can do: look at protest in France as an example.
Yes, and similarly, the china's populas accepted and adapted to their "normal" as well.
@somik said:
If you want your data to be shared only by the governments follow China.
True, but partially; because government of China is also ruled behind it by the rich.
I'll quote myself here as a response:
Erm... we already are. I mean you are living in a country (any) ruled by a group of people who needs money to run the country and keep order. The money comes from tax, which is only generated when money transfers hands. The largest tax payers are the big corporations (not their CEO or owners, but the business itself). Large business generates money that runs your country. They have huge sway over what goes on in the country. Since you are following the rules of the country, you are already following laws that benefit those money makers.
@somik said:
The people living in china behind the firewall are happier then people outside it.
Yeah, right. They are happy trying to access porn like others do. And while they bypass the firewall, they totally care for their privacy.
If I didn't know of the outside world, only living in my small bubble, i would be happier. I wont compare what I have vs what others have. I wont care which government is doing what for it's people, I wont care which two countries are at war. So I would be happier. Ofcourse it would be different for others, but that's just what I feel about it.
Let's not be hypocritical. There is no perfect system. After thousands of years of evolution we still have not managed to eliminate greed through any political system. If you consider yourself a perfect leader to rule the world, then I am ignorant indeed.
"In times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers." - history taught us this much.
Yet, our rulers are always first to build barriers. Trumps "mexican wall", china's "firewall", etc. The issue is that we will always vote for the foolish, never the wise...
This is generally hard for foreigners now, unless you have a Z (work) visa.
To fund wechat wallet, you either need to link it to a Chinese bank account or receive a red packet. However, about 4 years ago, they massively tightened this up and now you can only receive a red packet if you also have a linked bank account. Opening a bank account is generally difficult for foreigners now, typically you need a rental contract, a form from the local PSB to show you're registered as living there, and a suitable visa. I tried quite a few different banks in 2018, and didn't succeed in opening an account at all. Prior to 2017 it was pretty easy to open a bank account even with an L (tourist) visa.
Alipay is supposed to be the best alternative for foreigners as it apparently allows linking a foreign credit card to it. I never managed to get it to work though, but I've heard from others who succeeded.
This is generally hard for foreigners now, unless you have a Z (work) visa.
To fund wechat wallet, you either need to link it to a Chinese bank account or receive a red packet. However, about 4 years ago, they massively tightened this up and now you can only receive a red packet if you also have a linked bank account. Opening a bank account is generally difficult for foreigners now, typically you need a rental contract, a form from the local PSB to show you're registered as living there, and a suitable visa. I tried quite a few different banks in 2018, and didn't succeed in opening an account at all. Prior to 2017 it was pretty easy to open a bank account even with an L (tourist) visa.
Alipay is supposed to be the best alternative for foreigners as it apparently allows linking a foreign credit card to it. I never managed to get it to work though, but I've heard from others who succeeded.
That's funny! Cause in Singapore, you can actually sign up and use WeChat Pay to pay for regular meals in some of the shops. Singapore bank issued cards can be used for top-ups. It is actually a preferred way of payment to many in Singapore, to the point that everywhere the local bank account payment system (PayLah!) is accepted, they will generally have a WeChat pay option as well...
I also saw Alipay in SG but never used it. So dunno much about it. I generally use the local bank payment method, "PayLah!"
@somik said:
That's funny! Cause in Singapore, you can actually sign up and use WeChat Pay to pay for regular meals in some of the shops. Singapore bank issued cards can be used for top-ups. It is actually a preferred way of payment to many in Singapore, to the point that everywhere the local bank account payment system (PayLah!) is accepted, they will generally have a WeChat pay option as well...
Yeah, it's the same in China. Almost everyone accepts Wechat Pay and maybe half of retailers also accept Alipay.
My point is that as a foreigner, it's next to impossible to open a local bank account without a Z visa, and as such getting money into your Wechat Wallet is impossible. There are some limited exceptions, e.g. I could top up my mobile phone credit using Wechat Pay and an attached foreign credit card, but in general Wechat payments come from your wallet, for which you need an attached local bank.
I also saw Alipay in SG but never used it. So dunno much about it. I generally use the local bank payment method, "PayLah!"
I genuinely laughed at that name! Sounds very Singaporean!
@somik said:
That's funny! Cause in Singapore, you can actually sign up and use WeChat Pay to pay for regular meals in some of the shops. Singapore bank issued cards can be used for top-ups. It is actually a preferred way of payment to many in Singapore, to the point that everywhere the local bank account payment system (PayLah!) is accepted, they will generally have a WeChat pay option as well...
Yeah, it's the same in China. Almost everyone accepts Wechat Pay and maybe half of retailers also accept Alipay.
My point is that as a foreigner, it's next to impossible to open a local bank account without a Z visa, and as such getting money into your Wechat Wallet is impossible. There are some limited exceptions, e.g. I could top up my mobile phone credit using Wechat Pay and an attached foreign credit card, but in general Wechat payments come from your wallet, for which you need an attached local bank.
You can topup your WeChat wallet using Singapore bank accounts. And Singapore allows foreigners to open bank accounts. So i find it weird that you can't do the same in China... I guess the great firewall extends beyond just internet and encroaches even on the payment systems...
@somik said:
You can topup your WeChat wallet using Singapore bank accounts. And Singapore allows foreigners to open bank accounts. So i find it weird that you can't do the same in China... I guess the great firewall extends beyond just internet and encroaches even on the payment systems...
It's a different wallet. Even Wechat Pay for Hong Kong is completely separate, although as of 2019 Hong Kong residents were able to maintain both currencies. Not sure if Chinese residents can have a HKD wallet. There was also talk of being able to use either wallet for purchases and have the currency exchange happen automatically, but I imagine that got forgotten about during COVID as the border was shut for so long.
@somik said:
You can topup your WeChat wallet using Singapore bank accounts. And Singapore allows foreigners to open bank accounts. So i find it weird that you can't do the same in China... I guess the great firewall extends beyond just internet and encroaches even on the payment systems...
It's a different wallet. Even Wechat Pay for Hong Kong is completely separate, although as of 2019 Hong Kong residents were able to maintain both currencies. Not sure if Chinese residents can have a HKD wallet. There was also talk of being able to use either wallet for purchases and have the currency exchange happen automatically, but I imagine that got forgotten about during COVID as the border was shut for so long.
Oh yea, cause the SG wallet is in SGD and need to pay in CNY...
Comments
↑↑↑
Doublethink + Whataboutism Fallacy + Slippery Slope Fallacy
smartass shitposting satirist
Only if you run an "airport", or use it to download constantly.
Nothing is perfect, and wg and ss has severely affected the GFW's ability to do packet inspection, that's why they switched to other tactics.
The all seeing eye sees everything...
You know there's a difference between example and Slippery Slope Fallacy, right?
I made the claim "there is no free internet" first, and then I gave two examples. It's not the case that I use two examples to conclude "there is no free internet." I can give you more examples; for instance, no country in this world allows child p0rn.
Also this is not Whataboutism. Again they are examples to support the claim "there is no free internet." I didn't use internet censorship in the US or other countries to support the claim that internet censorship in China is right. In fact I think China's censorship is too strict.
I have stated clearly "most countries censor the Internet for political, intellectual property protection, and child protection reasons." This is my answer to the question "why china don't give freedom about the internet"
Makes sense. If a regular IP hosting normal content suddenly starts getting a lot of traffic, there is definitely something shady going on...
That is why there is the onion network. Distributed network with multiple entry points designed to circumvent most countries firewalls, but in reality hosts a lot of super illegal contents that are not allowed on the internet, specially in the 4th category mentioned above...
Websites have ads, I have ad-blocker.
Agree! Back to the question, I don't think China will abandon the firewall, but it might be less strict... depends on how the leader of China thinks about it.
I agree about all country can be ban/not allow killing/gore/sexualization-of-minors/rape etc., but why china can ban Google and Social media?, also in some router can be have Filtering Adult Content for Kids about these.
I don't agree about china block Google, Google also have safe search setting, it's can be turn on
Imagine go to china without google traslate
Because google doesn't follow china Gov censor recommend. It only follows the US Gov.
and US will sanction at any time.
So China build internet for their needs.
If China wants to be the greatest power of the East and form a huge alliance (like US did as regional hegemon), it needs an open display of flexibility towards cultures and values of others. In such scenario The Great Firewall has to be removed, just to show respect and openness for others. Otherwise in my humble opinion China will remain a superpower isolated by some huge "wall" established by people who cling to power.
I do not agree with you there. US promotes openness and thus they promote openness even through behind the scene they are the same with censoring and disregard for data privacy. China promotes closed door policy and their public face is also the same.
If you want your data to be shared by the governments AND the top companies AND/OR anyone who has money to pay, follow US.
If you want your data to be shared only by the governments follow China.
The people living in china behind the firewall are happier then people outside it. Afterall, ignorance is bliss...
Wechat is also used for payments. Baidu for video sharing. And you can ofcourse hire translators/guides at a very cheap price when you go over.
Websites have ads, I have ad-blocker.
Google translate was available in China and Google closed it last year (2022) "due to low usage." Check this: https://www.pcmag.com/news/google-translate-discontinued-in-china
Note Google translate might not be the most accurate English/Chinese translator.
Google search was blocked since 2014 because Google couldn't accommodate requests from Chinese government. I've heard part of the reason is that Google needs a court order to remove content; but in China they get a lot of requests from the communist party, not from the court. China has a different political system and some rules won't apply there...
social media platforms like twitter and facebook were blocked for inciting the 2009 Urumuqi riots in Xinjiang (which resulting in about 200 deaths and over one thousand injuries) and have not been unblocked.
These tech giants tried to re-enter China with censored version of their products, but they never made it. I guess it's because Chinese government wants to promote Chinese substitutes like Weibo and Baidu
Better way for go to china without google traslate is learn chiniese
You are partially right. The censoring is done to a certain degree; the disregard for data privacy is only on top levels. We know it, we adapted to it, and it is not that bad once you realise it. There are limitations to what government can do: look at protest in France as an example.
Yet China is also ruled by corporations who have money to pay. They get the best internet, and uncensored.
True, but partially; because government of China is also ruled behind it by the rich.
Yeah, right. They are happy trying to access porn like others do. And while they bypass the firewall, they totally care for their privacy.
Let's not be hypocritical. There is no perfect system. After thousands of years of evolution we still have not managed to eliminate greed through any political system. If you consider yourself a perfect leader to rule the world, then I am ignorant indeed.
"In times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers." - history taught us this much.
Yes, and similarly, the china's populas accepted and adapted to their "normal" as well.
And again, those corporations ARE controlled by the government. Trencent, Wechat, Baidu, you name it, government has their hands in it.
I'll quote myself here as a response:
If I didn't know of the outside world, only living in my small bubble, i would be happier. I wont compare what I have vs what others have. I wont care which government is doing what for it's people, I wont care which two countries are at war. So I would be happier. Ofcourse it would be different for others, but that's just what I feel about it.
Yet, our rulers are always first to build barriers. Trumps "mexican wall", china's "firewall", etc. The issue is that we will always vote for the foolish, never the wise...
Websites have ads, I have ad-blocker.
This is generally hard for foreigners now, unless you have a Z (work) visa.
To fund wechat wallet, you either need to link it to a Chinese bank account or receive a red packet. However, about 4 years ago, they massively tightened this up and now you can only receive a red packet if you also have a linked bank account. Opening a bank account is generally difficult for foreigners now, typically you need a rental contract, a form from the local PSB to show you're registered as living there, and a suitable visa. I tried quite a few different banks in 2018, and didn't succeed in opening an account at all. Prior to 2017 it was pretty easy to open a bank account even with an L (tourist) visa.
Alipay is supposed to be the best alternative for foreigners as it apparently allows linking a foreign credit card to it. I never managed to get it to work though, but I've heard from others who succeeded.
That's funny! Cause in Singapore, you can actually sign up and use WeChat Pay to pay for regular meals in some of the shops. Singapore bank issued cards can be used for top-ups. It is actually a preferred way of payment to many in Singapore, to the point that everywhere the local bank account payment system (PayLah!) is accepted, they will generally have a WeChat pay option as well...
I also saw Alipay in SG but never used it. So dunno much about it. I generally use the local bank payment method, "PayLah!"
Websites have ads, I have ad-blocker.
Really? I find it hard to imagine that corporations get uncensored internet in china. Do you mean via VPNs?
Yeah, it's the same in China. Almost everyone accepts Wechat Pay and maybe half of retailers also accept Alipay.
My point is that as a foreigner, it's next to impossible to open a local bank account without a Z visa, and as such getting money into your Wechat Wallet is impossible. There are some limited exceptions, e.g. I could top up my mobile phone credit using Wechat Pay and an attached foreign credit card, but in general Wechat payments come from your wallet, for which you need an attached local bank.
I genuinely laughed at that name! Sounds very Singaporean!
You can topup your WeChat wallet using Singapore bank accounts. And Singapore allows foreigners to open bank accounts. So i find it weird that you can't do the same in China... I guess the great firewall extends beyond just internet and encroaches even on the payment systems...
Websites have ads, I have ad-blocker.
It's a different wallet. Even Wechat Pay for Hong Kong is completely separate, although as of 2019 Hong Kong residents were able to maintain both currencies. Not sure if Chinese residents can have a HKD wallet. There was also talk of being able to use either wallet for purchases and have the currency exchange happen automatically, but I imagine that got forgotten about during COVID as the border was shut for so long.
Oh yea, cause the SG wallet is in SGD and need to pay in CNY...
Websites have ads, I have ad-blocker.
If you have 500K CNY in bank ,you can try to apply HK bank account in china.
And 50K free to exchange between HKD and CNY in the bank annual.
You can exchange more HKD if you should pay more for education propose, Health cost etc.