Virtfusion, who is using it? Providers, do you enjoy it? Customers, how's your end-user experience?

MannDude · September 2022

I (very briefly) played around with VirtFusion a bit on a spare server I had available and quite liked it, and I've been sort of following along from the sidelines ever since. It seems to be updated often and the active Discord and developer involvement in the discussion sort of gives me the impression it's not going to disappear anytime soon.

Figured this would just be a decent general discussion about VirtFusion.

Providers: What do you like about it? What did you use before using VirtFusion? Any complaints or weird quirks? How long have you been using it?

Customers: As an end user, do you prefer the setup process of your server with VirtFusion? It's a bit unique and different than that of Virtualizor and Solus, etc. In my limited testing I didn't mind it and it seemed intuitive enough to create a server after ordering one, and I thought the UI seemed simple and sharp, I liked it.

MikeA · September 2022

I know you're in the Discord, but what's not to like about it? Modern, user friendly, lots of features like remote backups, keys, customer linked ISOs, cloudinit, no bloat shit like trying to support every virtualization in existence.

corbpie · September 2022

Very much enjoy it, smooth and easy to use. I have 2 providers utilizing it currently

AaronSS · September 2022

@MikeA said:
I know you're in the Discord, but what's not to like about it? Modern, user friendly, lots of features like remote backups, keys, customer linked ISOs, cloudinit, no bloat shit like trying to support every virtualization in existence.

This is basically exactly what I was going to say. It’s one of the many reasons I use @MikeA for my hosting needs

MannDude · September 2022

@MikeA said:
I know you're in the Discord, but what's not to like about it? Modern, user friendly, lots of features like remote backups, keys, customer linked ISOs, cloudinit, no bloat shit like trying to support every virtualization in existence.

Everything I've seen so far has been positive. Hoping to get some feedback from customers of providers who use it as well, though.

BingoBongo · September 2022

They are excellent in terms of features and userfriendlyness..

The only thing in my opinion is missing is a proper module (My requirements are different)

For example, I want clients can manage and do all tasks like reinstall, reboot, upload iso directly from client are and not from control panel itself. But presently with their module it's not possible and it's only allow clients to jump to the control panel to do all tasks.

So we have to build a custom module for that..

Also there's no module at present for Hostbill as well.

cybertech · September 2022

i like it. gives me feeling similar to proxcp, except virtfusion looks better.

legendary · September 2022

@BingoBongo said:
They are excellent in terms of features and userfriendlyness..

The only thing in my opinion is missing is a proper module (My requirements are different)

For example, I want clients can manage and do all tasks like reinstall, reboot, upload iso directly from client are and not from control panel itself. But presently with their module it's not possible and it's only allow clients to jump to the control panel to do all tasks.

So we have to build a custom module for that..

Also there's no module at present for Hostbill as well.

Contact hostbill. They will make it.

MikeA · September 2022

@legendary said:

Also there's no module at present for Hostbill as well.

Contact hostbill. They will make it.

I believe they already are, but it's not their #1 development priority.

BlaZe · September 2022

The only thing which comes to my mind is that VirtFusion was created by the person who created SolusVM.
It will definitely be a phenomenal product, no doubt but till when?

What if the owner again takes an exit as he did with SolusVM? selling the company to investors and leaving the future in the hands of people who don't care about the product but would like to keep increasing license prices every year? a typical cashcow.

webcraft · September 2022

It's a great product which is actively developed and every week more useful functionalities are added.

Hxxx · September 2022

I'm more interested in the code audit results by a third party. Anyway RACK911 can have a look at this?
I personally prefer security over eye candy.

Haven't used the product yet therefore can't give an opinion.
But they are doing an excellent job, people are saying good things. Positive word of mouth always a WIN.

Any big provider considering or using them?
Thoughts on their code security?

VirtFusion · September 2022

@BingoBongo said:
They are excellent in terms of features and userfriendlyness..

The only thing in my opinion is missing is a proper module (My requirements are different)

For example, I want clients can manage and do all tasks like reinstall, reboot, upload iso directly from client are and not from control panel itself. But presently with their module it's not possible and it's only allow clients to jump to the control panel to do all tasks.

So we have to build a custom module for that..

Also there's no module at present for Hostbill as well.

Those types of modules will exist at some point but VirtFusion is all about the user experience. You're not going to get that by restricting access.

HostBill are working on a module and it's expected to be released in October.

VirtFusion · September 2022

@Hxxx said:
I'm more interested in the code audit results by a third party. Anyway RACK911 can have a look at this?
I personally prefer security over eye candy.

Haven't used the product yet therefore can't give an opinion.
But they are doing an excellent job, people are saying good things. Positive word of mouth always a WIN.

Any big provider considering or using them?
Thoughts on their code security?

Once the core changes settle down and the Rust backend is in place it will probably be audited by a firm in London that has done work for me previously.

Neoon · September 2022

@Hxxx said:
Thoughts on their code security?

I mean by looking at the documentation for WHMCS,

you generate an API key, which gives WHCMS permissions to everything? why? same way Virtualizor does it and its bad.
"Tick Secure", by default you support plain text, bad idea, If someone doesn't tick that box, his system is insecure and that by default
Would be also interesting to see, what TLS version he forces or uses and which cypher.

VirtFusion · September 2022

@Neoon said:

@Hxxx said:
Thoughts on their code security?

I mean by looking at the documentation for WHMCS,

you generate an API key, which gives WHCMS permissions to everything? why? same way Virtualizor does it and its bad.

"Tick Secure", by default you support plain text, bad idea, If someone doesn't tick that box, his system is insecure and that by default
Would be also interesting to see, what TLS version he forces or uses and which cypher.

To be fair the API currently only has support for billing module functionality so ACL would have little impact at this point.

The API also only runs over a secure connection so Secure has to be ticked.

chris · September 2022

As a potential provider - absolutely seamless from my experience! I've been using it internally for now just to familiarise myself and to be quite frank I'm hesitant to increase my workload and commitment at the moment as I'm in a little sweet spot!

Community is nice, the few suggestions I've made have been taken on board, only minor things in all fairness but Phill has been open to discussion on the future of VirtFusion which is a massive plus in my eyes! I recall him saying he built it for his users user and it bloody shows! Logging in as an end user it's beyond any other software on the market currently just on visuals alone, add in the ease of use for the end user and its a clear winner from me.

Security concerns - I feel the promise to have it audited will probably make me sleep better but looking at the competition........ you're taking a gamble there anyway! It feels like a box tick that needs to happen and I'm personally willing to accept waiting for the software to mature slightly when taking into account my perceived level of trust in the competition!

I'd be interested to hear from other providers on how they find it at scale though - I feel my usage is somewhat limited due to not needing as many features!

BingoBongo · September 2022

@legendary said:

@BingoBongo said:
They are excellent in terms of features and userfriendlyness..

The only thing in my opinion is missing is a proper module (My requirements are different)

For example, I want clients can manage and do all tasks like reinstall, reboot, upload iso directly from client are and not from control panel itself. But presently with their module it's not possible and it's only allow clients to jump to the control panel to do all tasks.

So we have to build a custom module for that..

Also there's no module at present for Hostbill as well.

Contact hostbill. They will make it.

thanks for your suggestion but it's not fit for our use

BingoBongo · September 2022

@VirtFusion said:

@BingoBongo said:
They are excellent in terms of features and userfriendlyness..

The only thing in my opinion is missing is a proper module (My requirements are different)

For example, I want clients can manage and do all tasks like reinstall, reboot, upload iso directly from client are and not from control panel itself. But presently with their module it's not possible and it's only allow clients to jump to the control panel to do all tasks.

So we have to build a custom module for that..

Also there's no module at present for Hostbill as well.

Those types of modules will exist at some point but VirtFusion is all about the user experience. You're not going to get that by restricting access.

HostBill are working on a module and it's expected to be released in October.

Thank you but a software can't decide how a company should run their business..

Anyway thanks for your suggestion but at present state your software (Module exactly) not fits into my requirements.

Yes it's a good software with a lot of useful features (Don't know anything on security side) but still I have to pass.

VirtFusion · September 2022

@BingoBongo said:

@VirtFusion said:

@BingoBongo said:
They are excellent in terms of features and userfriendlyness..

The only thing in my opinion is missing is a proper module (My requirements are different)

For example, I want clients can manage and do all tasks like reinstall, reboot, upload iso directly from client are and not from control panel itself. But presently with their module it's not possible and it's only allow clients to jump to the control panel to do all tasks.

So we have to build a custom module for that..

Also there's no module at present for Hostbill as well.

Those types of modules will exist at some point but VirtFusion is all about the user experience. You're not going to get that by restricting access.

HostBill are working on a module and it's expected to be released in October.

Thank you but a software can't decide how a company should run their business..

Anyway thanks for your suggestion but at present state your software (Module exactly) not fits into my requirements.

Yes it's a good software with a lot of useful features (Don't know anything on security side) but still I have to pass.

I agree, each to their own. We made the choice to put the end user first which meant a direct link was a good fit. With the other two popular virtualization solutions you’re not going to miss anything by confining the user to the billing system, with VF you are.

Like Chris said, we value your customers, it’s those who benefit us all.

chris · September 2022

I will add, I didn't like the idea of the end user being sent to the subdomain to manage it! I'm fully behind that idea now and I will likely edit any future modules I use to force that behavior!

The self contained nature of it is fantastic - As an enduser of other software and a prior user of one..... It's not been done to my standards yet across any of the competition! I'd even go as far as to suggest it wasn't done - Until it can be done well! It really devalues many solutions out there imo

MannDude · October 2022

@VirtFusion any plans on a Virtualizor --> VirtFusion conversion script?

Something that uninstalls the Virtualizor UI and dependencies, copies the relevant info, leaves the containers and imports the relevant info Virtfusion for a transition that doesn't require disruption of client servers?

vyas · October 2022

@VirtFusion

You seem to have shaken up things Virtualizer a bit and they see you as 'competition' - they reached out to me last week and asked if I could review their Panel - similar to my review of VirtFusion here

My compliments!

MikeA · October 2022

@vyas said:
@VirtFusion

You seem to have shaken up things Virtualizer a bit and they see you as 'competition' - they reached out to me last week and asked if I could review their Panel - similar to my review of VirtFusion here

My compliments!

🤣

Advin · October 2022

I have looked at using VirtFusion as a potential virtualization solution over at Advin Servers, but I ended up deciding not to.

My opinion of VirtFusion:
Honestly, VirtFusion is a great product. The interface is far better than anything I've seen from Virtualizor or SolusVM, and it has a very decent amount of features. Support is also (probably) far better than whatever you get at the other panels, as Phill does really care about listening to feedback and listening to the community from what I've seen. It's probably one of the best virtualization panels on the market right now for hosting providers.

However, the cost is a little expensive for a virtualization control panel. Virtualizor costs almost half as much as VirtFusion, assuming you qualify for the bulk licensing. Virtualizor costs only $7/node/month while VirtFusion costs almost $15/node/month (which is just the early adopter pricing¹). It makes it a little harder to justify using VirtFusion. It would be better if VirtFusion offered discounted pricing for providers with lots of nodes (i.e. 20+ nodes). Phill might do it if you ask him in private, but I think it would better if VirtFusion had public/set pricing for providers with a certain number of nodes.

¹It's important to note that the early adopter pricing is grandfathered in if you purchase VirtFusion now, and you can add on licenses at the discounted pricing at any time.

Why Advin Servers probably won't use it:
The main reason why I haven't really switched to it at Advin Servers is because the lack of easy migrations from our existing infrastructure. It would cost so much time, money, and effort for us in order to migrate to VirtFusion as we're currently using Proxmox on the backend. If we had used VirtFusion from the start, it would've been a lot better for us, but it's mostly the migration hassle that's preventing us from moving. Moreover, moving to VirtFusion would also easily raise our existing VPS licensing costs by a lot. We are currently working with a small developer in order to help fund/back a virtualization panel based on Proxmox which we'll likely switch to in the future.

Most of these points are very specific to us

VirtFusion · October 2022

@MannDude said:
@VirtFusion any plans on a Virtualizor --> VirtFusion conversion script?

Something that uninstalls the Virtualizor UI and dependencies, copies the relevant info, leaves the containers and imports the relevant info Virtfusion for a transition that doesn't require disruption of client servers?

It’s a huge huge task. We made the choice not to let the existing products out there influence the way VF was built and functions. It’s still proving to be the right choice.

VF uses cloud-init for deployment vs. the invasive methods the other panels use (combination of libguestfs, hypervisor mounts and file manipulation) so we can utilise the official distro cloud images out of the box. For example you can just pull a Ubuntu image https://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/ and it works. If a distro doesn’t have a decent cloud image, we supply our own and make available the packer scripts to build your own variant if needed.

It’s definitely possible to import SolusVM and Virtualizor (KVM) VMs into VF (it’s been done by a handful of hosts already) but it’s a manual process. I think the best we can do at this point is put a guide together that attempts to cover as many scenarios as possible.

VirtFusion · October 2022

We do also have some large hosts onboard that utilise software defined storage (StorPool/Lightbits) and it’s been a success so far, although these features are currently unreleased publicly.

There is also a TrueNAS solution in development that works similar to the above block storage solutions.

Ympker · October 2022

Maybe someone like @MichaelCee could have a look at how migrating services from Virtualizor to Virtfusion could work and then offer such services for a fair (= fair, not 7$) price. It seems there would be demand for this.

MannDude · October 2022

@VirtFusion said:

@MannDude said:
@VirtFusion any plans on a Virtualizor --> VirtFusion conversion script?

Something that uninstalls the Virtualizor UI and dependencies, copies the relevant info, leaves the containers and imports the relevant info Virtfusion for a transition that doesn't require disruption of client servers?

It’s definitely possible to import SolusVM and Virtualizor (KVM) VMs into VF (it’s been done by a handful of hosts already) but it’s a manual process. I think the best we can do at this point is put a guide together that attempts to cover as many scenarios as possible.

That'd be great. I'm slow to adopt new stuff, but in the absence of a conversion or import tool, a detailed guide would suffice. I recall some info being shared in Discord regarding this, but no official (as of yet or at the time) guide. Does that require moving containers from an old node (solus or Virtualizor) to a new one?

I suppose another option for us would be to simply stop deploying new nodes with Virtualizor and have VirtFusion installed moving forward, but then I've got to deal with two stacks but that may be preferable to the alternative.

I may experiment with it more soon. I really love the UI.

MikeA · October 2022

The process to move from SolusVM/Virtualizor is only a few commands. Make the VM in Virtfusion, send the VM disk image file from SolusVM/Virtualizor to the Virtfusion system, convert to qcow2 if it's not (If you use qcow2 in VF) then replace the existing .img file in the Virtfusion data dir.

I've moved like 8 systems full of servers to Virtfusion with no issue, the only limiting factor is transfer speed between systems. Otherwise it only takes a few minutes max. I am moving some more soon.

jrheiland · October 2022

I love the software from a management perspective and a end user perspective. Our users are always stunned by the UI.

The only thing I'd change about it is some of the networking support. It handles networking on a very basic level, which is fine for most. But we have a pretty complex network that basic bridges is a pain with.

With that being said, I feel like the conversion scripts are unnecessary. We migrated completely from proxmox and just created a script in house to do it. The fact you can call the API to create vms makes it a lot easier.

Virtfusion, who is using it? Providers, do you enjoy it? Customers, how's your end-user experience?

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