How much support is expected with bargain LE deals?

SocksAreComfortable · February 2023

To be clear up front, I have only had to use support a few times with webhosts, and have never had issues, most of the support has actually been great -- this is more of a general inquiry. I do want to make sure that any future requests I have are not pestering hosts, but I also want to know what common expectations would be. Obviously if I'm paying $10/year for a service, spending many hours of someone's customer service time is not profitable, but where exactly is the line?

I presume that if you pay regular prices for hosting, then you can expect to get support as needed (that's within the scope of whatever they help with). But if you're paying a much lower prices, either due to a LE coupon, Black Friday sale, whatever -- how much help do you expect a host to provide? The same as usual? Limited but still mostly available? Helping only if things are broken in some way? Or literally none at all?

And for providers, what type of requests do you hate getting, if you would say?

AuroraZero · February 2023

I try not to bother them unless it is something I can't do myself.

If the nodes down I assume they know.

If my service can not reinstall, setting rdns, hate asking for ISO uploads this should be a given. I will pop a ticket and wait.

Generally if it is not catastrophic I don't bother support.

terrorgen · February 2023

Ditto to above. Don't expect help unless it's something only the provider can do.

SocksAreComfortable · February 2023

If it's something that you don't know how to do, but could potentially do if you researched and spent some time figuring out, does that still fall into the 'don't bother them' category?

AuroraZero · February 2023

@SocksAreComfortable said:
If it's something that you don't know how to do, but could potentially do if you researched and spent some time figuring out, does that still fall into the 'don't bother them' category?

Yes for me anyways. Not all are like me though, some won't even bother to try and help themselves.

Usually if I can't get it done it is something that only the provider can accomplish.

terrorgen · February 2023

@SocksAreComfortable said:
If it's something that you don't know how to do, but could potentially do if you researched and spent some time figuring out, does that still fall into the 'don't bother them' category?

Yes. That's the lowendspirit

SocksAreComfortable · February 2023

Fair enough. I do try and solve most things myself, as well, though sometimes I don't know exactly what I need to figure out, when is usually when I reach out to support. Hopefully it's not been too irritating for my providers, lol. But half the fun of running VPSes for me has been learning, so I definitely get the appeal of solving stuff.

AuroraZero · February 2023

Ahh what you are describing comes with the experience factor. Knowing what to look at is half the battle really and you will only learn this by screwing something up and fixing it. Unless you want to shell out thousands and read a lot.

Then you still do not have the experience just the book knowledge.

As long as you do not spam a provider for things you will most likely be ok.

Don't be afraid to ask here either doesn't matter what the question is just ask and someone will help you out I am sure.

vyas · February 2023

How much support is expected with bargain LE deals?

cybertech · February 2023

lowend service providers need to maximize automation on the control panel for users to manage 99.9999% of functions by their own, and provide proper knowledgebase, guides, properly defined T&C, AUP, transfer and abuse polices etc.

they should also set a proper server monitoring system and ensure their hardware has been stress tested and proven before putting it in production (or have it handled by the DC provider).

that leaves very little to ambiguity "is it just me or everyone is fucked" and provider can then focus on providing best effort ticket support

legendary · February 2023

@SocksAreComfortable said: how much help do you expect a host to provide?

Maximum effort. Like 24/7 with maximum of 5 minutes reply on initial request (non-caned response). I demand absolutely the best. This helps a little for hosts to develop in terms of filtering assholes. My-self including.

crunchbits · February 2023

@SocksAreComfortable said:
Fair enough. I do try and solve most things myself, as well, though sometimes I don't know exactly what I need to figure out, when is usually when I reach out to support. Hopefully it's not been too irritating for my providers, lol. But half the fun of running VPSes for me has been learning, so I definitely get the appeal of solving stuff.

I would say the line is drawn at managed vs unmanaged. There are things that only we can do (as the provider) where a ticket is required. Not really a big deal, sale or not.

A user wanting us to install their game server and configure it? Yeah, unlikely to happen unless there are 0 tickets in queue and nothing else to do. It’s happened, so I can’t say it’s impossible, but it is just extremely rare.

I did notice that a majority of users (especially from LE space) are actually pretty cordial and polite. Almost like they’ve been beaten by their previous hosts. Even if it’s a simple request about specific hardware or double-checking things it really shouldn’t be such an inconvenience for a host to provide post-sales support.

Marking tickets correctly (high vs low priority, title, etc) probably helps you more than you realize (at least with us) due to how queues are handled.

deank · February 2023

Expect no support unless it's hardware related.

If you can't do it yourself, then don't shop for bottom barrel deals.

That's my take on it.

FrankZ · February 2023

@SocksAreComfortable said: Fair enough. I do try and solve most things myself, as well, though sometimes I don't know exactly what I need to figure out, when is usually when I reach out to support.

For me if it is not hardware related it goes like this...
1. Ask @FrankZ
2. Google
3. Ask question on LE*
4. Trial and error until I figure it out.

AuroraZero · February 2023

@FrankZ is there a search to ask Frankz like ask Jeeves?

chris · February 2023

I did notice that a majority of users (especially from LE space) are actually pretty cordial and polite. Almost like they’ve been beaten by their previous hosts. Even if it’s a simple request about specific hardware or double-checking things it really shouldn’t be such an inconvenience for a host to provide post-sales support.

This made me chuckle, yeah I've had a fair few over the years where you can tell they've reached their wits end and expect to be berated and/or have their family threatened for the slightest request - then end up having a pleasant experience with us and the floodgates of emotions open up! It's a nice feeling personally, I like to know my clients are happy and if it's not ongoing daily spam then I wouldn't be bothered by people asking me for help!

I've got clients that I'm pretty sure they'll remain with us for life unless things nose dived and haven't spoken to in years just based upon initial experiences! Personally though I couldn't be a host that charges extra to actually answer a ticket - nor could I be a bin man that wants paying extra to empty each bin...... I suppose that's why people need to really evaluate who they go with! If you feel like your host is sub par in some way then I highly recommend @bikegremlin 's blog

SocksAreComfortable · February 2023

Really interesting to see everyone's perspective on this -- and how much overlap there is. It really is a "the more you know, the less you ask others" situation like you find in many concentrated groups of people who have some experience in whatever field it may be. For someone like myself, where tech is a lifelong hobby but has never been career-related, who has plenty of knowledge in certain areas of the field but who also has some significant gaps, often due to the lack of real-world experience, it's really interesting. A lot of the stuff that I don't know how to do often turns out to be "simple" (because people have spent many hours and much effort making it that way), but finding that solution is not always straightforward or easy.

So, I really appreciate forums like this, with a small but diverse group of people, especially in terms of location, where questions can be asked and you can get those hard-to-find but easy-to-do solutions that would've otherwise taken hours or days of internet searching, as undoubtedly someone (or many someones) has already encountered that same issue, and has a bookmark or just remembers which script or command they used to fix things. I've been asking a few questions on the LET forum (which I found before this place, and still learning about how LES came to exist), but have spent a lot of time poring over the threads on both sites, there's so much hidden knowledge!

Also, it's hilarious to read the provider perspective that @crunchbits mentioned -- I totally write that like when I'm approaching customer service and feel like I might be pestering them, or if it's something that I presume is actually easy and I'm just blind/dumb...and of course, customer service with companies like Comcast/T-Mobile/etc. don't exactly inspire confidence, but it's a completely different experience talking to the people who support hosting providers, Crunchbits being one of those I've had to put a ticket in for and had good interaction with (BuyVM and RackNerd being two others off the top of my head).

Mumbly · February 2023

I prefer to stick with hosts long term, so my favourite hosts are those where's no need to open support ticket at all for years, but sometimes there's something out of my control (manual rDNS setup request, outage, etc...) where's simply no other choice than to open ticket and then hope for an answer in timely manner.
This does not mean that I require solution right now, but it's nice if in case of outage host at least acknowledge issue within next few hours and respond that they are working on it.
For things like rDNS setup (if host support that, but there's no option for me to set it up via control panel) I am willing to wait longer as it's something "extra" on my side, but then again it's appreciated if host at least acknowledge my request within lets say two days and set it up in the next few days.

By my experience LE bargain deal doesn't mean by default crappy support or even ignorance from the hosts and support times vary from a host to a host. Some hosts are simply awesome, while the others...
Those more competent LE hosts don't just solve (network, hardware..) issue but also send out RFO report after they fix issue which is very appreciated and give impression that host know what they are doing and they care for the clients.

FrankZ · February 2023

@AuroraZero said:
@FrankZ is there a search to ask Frankz like ask Jeeves?

Just a tag in a green forum will get you a response of some kind, Ask FrankZ is not limited to a single url.

yoursunny · February 2023

@SocksAreComfortable said:
If it's something that you don't know how to do, but could potentially do if you researched and spent some time figuring out, does that still fall into the 'don't bother them' category?

Yes, you must have exhausted everything in your power before opening tickets.
This allows you to learn more about the systems and protocols.
A true story:

Normally, when you want to use on-link IPv6 addresses inside containers, you install ndppd.
I found ndppd not working on WebHorizon Poland.
If I open ticket, @Abdullah may or may not know the solution.
Instead, I carefully studied relevant Internet protocols and read kernel source code, and wrote ndpresponder program.

Later I found ndpresponder not working on Webhosting24 Munich.
If I open ticket, @tomazu might change something in the backend, and I might still run into the same situation at another provider with a clueless technical support.
Once again, I conducted systematic experiments and compared packet traces, and improved ndpresponder accordingly.

Once I posted my findings on this forum, @tomazu said you could have asked.
Only at this time did I open the ticket, and I proceeded to help him figure out how to configure routed IPv6 on Virtualizor, which made him an elite member of Routed IPv6 Hall of Fame.

Nowadays, ndpresponder is a well liked program.
c1nema on Route48 Discord said:
It works flawlessly 🙂 Finally IPv6 and Docker is not a pain in the a** anymore.

PureVoltage · February 2023

Typically I feel this applies to low end and just anything in life. Ask for help as a last resort when you can't figure it out after trying it yourself and googling the issues.

We found this quite funny in the past doing some tests with game servers. We found that our low end budget brand that was created around no support had more people asking for help than the higher priced service branded around support being there 24/7. It was quite interesting. Now on the other hand with VPS and dedicated servers we found that the lower end people asked for as much support as higher end. I feel a lot of times those customers in general are better than game server customers. Most likely as you are dealing with less kids.

Jab · February 2023

Expect none support, you won't be sad or disappointed.

crunchbits · February 2023

@SocksAreComfortable said:
Also, it's hilarious to read the provider perspective that @crunchbits mentioned -- I totally write that like when I'm approaching customer service and feel like I might be pestering them, or if it's something that I presume is actually easy and I'm just blind/dumb...and of course, customer service with companies like Comcast/T-Mobile/etc. don't exactly inspire confidence, but it's a completely different experience talking to the people who support hosting providers, Crunchbits being one of those I've had to put a ticket in for and had good interaction with (BuyVM and RackNerd being two others off the top of my head).

Just in case: I definitely wasn't calling you out, in fact I/anyone on my team has no clue who's screen name is tied to which customer so I didn't even know about the ticket

It's just been a relatively common occurrence and because I can see what coupons were used I generally know where the customer originated from with high confidence. A lot of the users (even if our product doesn't work out for them) from the LE world have been exceptionally cordial and professional.

Now--there is a certain subset but I think the best approach there is just to mirror their behavior back. I also don't think they are direct LE* users, and come from referrals elsewhere which are scraped from LE* deals. I think a lot of hosts likely give-in to their discount on top of discount demands which (imo) only ends up degrading your product and quality. >3 unique tickets opened in the first 24hrs of the relationship with >10 exclamation points in aggregate all over the same issue (which always is PEBKAC) on our cheapest product usually is a strong indicator for a relationship to end and my tone will mirror as such. Surely, there is no way we could ever provide the quality they are accustomed to receiving

@chris said:
This made me chuckle, yeah I've had a fair few over the years where you can tell they've reached their wits end and expect to be berated and/or have their family threatened for the slightest request - then end up having a pleasant experience with us and the floodgates of emotions open up! It's a nice feeling personally, I like to know my clients are happy and if it's not ongoing daily spam then I wouldn't be bothered by people asking me for help!

Yeah--I'm too new to this side of things to really know the deep root causes, but my guess is overworked/stressed previous hosts assuming it's another [HIGH PRIORITY] !!!!!!! ticket spam that is completely the fault of the user who expects sub 2 minute response time for messing up /etc/fstab, and just talking down/berating otherwise good customers.

TigersWay · February 2023

@cybertech said:
lowend service providers need to maximize automation on the control panel for users to manage 99.9999% of functions by their own, and provide proper knowledgebase, guides, properly defined T&C, AUP, transfer and abuse polices etc.

they should also set a proper server monitoring system and ensure their hardware has been stress tested and proven before putting it in production (or have it handled by the DC provider).

that leaves very little to ambiguity "is it just me or everyone is fucked" and provider can then focus on providing best effort ticket support

You did summarize it PERFECTLY! And sadly I don't know any of the cheap - and most of the not cheap - providers who does that!!

Janevski · February 2023

24/7 and sometimes, 25/8.

ralf · February 2023

My perspective is that if you buy an unmanaged service, you should treat it as such. If you don't know how to configure some program that you've chosen to install (whether that's something as simple as a small application all the way up to the entire OS) then that's up to you to figure it out, not the provider.

If you have sufficient experience to know that it's the provider's problem not yours, or it's something obvious like the hard disk has failed, then you should raise a ticket. Otherwise, remember that you bought an unmanaged server. If in doubt, reinstall it and if the base install from the image they provided doesn't work, then consider contacting them.

root · February 2023

I barely ask for support. I do this if the service is down for more than a day (with no announcement / provider not aware) or if the provider asks me to open a support ticket in the offer itself (for IPv6, double RAM and so on).

However, I am still interested about people who keep asking for support because they keep losing millions.

rcy026 · February 2023

@deank said:
Expect no support unless it's hardware related.

If you can't do it yourself, then don't shop for bottom barrel deals.

That's my take on it.

Totally agree with above. If I pay peanuts I do not expect the provider to provide anything besides basic infrastructure. If the vps runs, they have done their part.

Peoples expectation of complete handholding and teaching them how to use the product they bought is the major reason that I left the hosting industry. It's just not a viable business to sell a product for $7/month and then spend $70/month on teaching the customer how to use it.

deank · February 2023

Worse, those pussyheads blame you for their own ducking failure and leave bad reviews for not helping out more.

Nighheads.

terrorgen · February 2023

@root said: However, I am still interested about people who keep asking for support because they keep losing millions.

yeah, millions of brain cells maybe.
I am surprised they have that much cells to lose.

How much support is expected with bargain LE deals?

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How much support is expected with bargain LE deals?