@System said:
This discussion was created from comments split from: €9/YEAR - 2C/2G/20G/250M SPECIAL DEAL!.
I have been spending a bit of time over the last couple months contacting providers with the objective of getting them to post more good offers on LES. This has met with some resistance from providers because providing special offers requires time and effort on their part. IE:
(Quote)
(Quote)
But over all the response has been positive with both old and new providers increasing to some degree the frequency of offers threads, and IMO leading to some better offers. But now I am seeing a few members going around saying the offers are unsustainable or spam offers in offer threads. Making it seem that I am working at cross purposes to what the community envisions.
So I figure it is a good time to have a community discussion on the subject.
Do you guys want more and better offers or is this not really the reason you visit LES ?
@FrankZ Your investment of time for the benefit of LES is really, really appreciated!
Would it be better to have more tech discussions, general fun shit posting threads, or ?
LES is great! There is no reason why we can't have EVERYTHING: great offers, great tech discussions, great how-to posts, plus great general fun posts!
If more tech discussions or how to's are what you want. What do you feel stops you from having them now ?
For tech discussions, recently I've asked about how and when the FILE type was integrated into the C programming language. I quoted the GNU libc manual. I mentioned the B programming language. Another topic I mentioned recently was how the mainstream "Linus" Linux kernel gets imported into various GNU/Linux distributions. I mentioned the Koji build platform that Fedora uses. These topics didn't generate much response. What stops me from trying to start more tech discussions is my perception that people here have different tech interests and so might not especially care to participate in discussions I start.
I am slow about writing, so how-tos take a long time. If I write a how-to post, it takes a couple or three days to research and test it, then a couple or three days to make screenshots, write it, proofread, retest, adjust, do more research, rewrite, show to people involved, analyze their comments, make more adjustments, etc.
The high point of my enthusiasm in how-to writing usually seems to be the moment the post is finished. Both here and at OGF there sometimes is an additional, multiple day gap between submission and publication. I understand that the staff here and there need time to do their jobs well. Nevertheless, I think it would help motivate writers if a way could be found to decrease the time between submission and publication.
Members that write decent how to articles on LES get a special place it my
Staff that cares as much as you and Mason and Relja get a special place in my Thank you all again so much!
Thank you for your kind words regarding the staff here at LES. I have never previously had the pleasure of working with such a great group of guys. From my perspective it has been like a breath of fresh air.
@Not_Oles said: LES is great! There is no reason why we can't have EVERYTHING: great offers, great tech discussions, great how-to posts, plus great general fun posts!
I agree, and hope most other members do too.
@Not_Oles said: For tech discussions, recently I've asked about how and when the FILE type was integrated into the C programming language. I quoted the GNU libc manual. I mentioned the B programming language. Another topic I mentioned recently was how the mainstream "Linus" Linux kernel gets imported into various GNU/Linux distributions. I mentioned the Koji build platform that Fedora uses. These topics didn't generate much response. What stops me from trying to start more tech discussions is my perception that people here have different tech interests and so might not especially care to participate in discussions I start.
Although I did comment in your "FILE" thread, most of the time your tech discussions are over my head. I do read them and find them enjoyable, it is just not something that I feel that I am knowledgeable enough to comment on. Maybe others feel the same way, and just because there are not a lot of comments in these threads does not mean that people are not reading and gaining something from them.
@Not_Oles said: I am slow about writing, so how-tos take a long time. If I write a how-to post, it takes a couple or three days to research and test it, then a couple or three days to make screenshots, write it, proofread, retest, adjust, do more research, rewrite, show to people involved, analyze their comments, make more adjustments, etc.
I do understand how much time and effort goes into writing a good how to or article. People who make the effort to do this show that they care about the community. I recognize this, and my hope is that others will join in this process because as the old saying goes, many hands make light work.
The high point of my enthusiasm in how-to writing usually seems to be the moment the post is finished. Both here and at OGF there is an additional, multiple day gap between submission and publication. I understand that the staff here and there need time to do their jobs well. Nevertheless, I think it would help motivate writers if a way could be found to decrease the time between submission and publication.
Thank you for pointing this out. It was something I had not considered before.
I am currently traveling in mostly remote areas until sometime in April 2024. Consequently DM's sent to me will go unanswered during this time.
For staff assistance or support issues please use the helpdesk ticket system at https://support.lowendspirit.com/index.php?a=add
I think LES deals are unsustainable for most of the NEW Providers, old providers who have tons of IP it's a different story.
Lets run some numbers:
These days anybody can get a dedicated server for around $50 per month or even less, that can act as a low end VPS Node, may or may not have RAID, but still the client does not know about it.
Usually these servers comes with around 64GB RAM and 1G Port speed
So if a provider is selling VPS with 1G RAM they can easily sell about 50-60 VPS per server, unless they want to oversell
So if they sell a VPS for $12/yr and if they make the server full or sell 50-60 VPS then they reach breakeven (not yet included a lot of other expenses)
So now if they do it for $9 per year they are selling it at a loss and makes it unsustainable.
Now lets talk about other expenses.
Lets say the VPS comes with 1 IPv4 IP, if you get it from IPXO etc... you may get it for about 0.4-5 per IP, but then again you need to pay atleast for a /24 so unless you have about 5 nodes, it's just not possible to get these IP
And if you buy IP from your server provider, they all charge atleast $1 per IP (ofcourse there are few exceptions), so if you take $50 server with atleast 50 IP to sell 50 VPS, you are paying $100 per month
So now the basic cost of VPS is $2 per month for the provider
WAIT ... what about payment processor charges ?
That again varies, but if we assume it 4% ? then even it adds it to expenses
Above all of it you need to even count WHMCS or billing software license fees, support team if you have any
*Obligatory - this rant is not directly aimed at you directly, just the points you bought up! *
The other side of the coin, most people I speak to privately, refer to hosts that engage in as the spamming guy on LE* or some other insult along those lines, they've long forgotten the service as they actively ignore the spam ones! Imo good posts get interaction without all the nonsense. Listing an offer, it's still there in search aswell, seeing the same post more often is not something that'd make me buy, A lot will just scroll on past, because it's the same incessant nonsense over and over again so it's whatever you find works, but I'll avoid a provider based upon the way they conduct themselves in a forum, I know others do too! My advice is don't be the Raid: shadow legends of LES that people roll their eyes at and skip past!
With the exception of two hosts, I marvel at how they stay in business and religiously watch their posts - But I'd never even be tempted to buy something from them, no matter the price!
One further note, is when you started I signed up...... be that guy... not the double bandwidth dipping daddy of a market of cheap skates
Those are all good points. I would like to further clarify: I've found anything LES-specific hasn't needed spam and doesn't have issues with visibility/interactions in the same way--critiques were mostly pointed at current state OGF. I was hoping a giveaway w/some effort required and laughs (@Not_Oles stuff) would be better than literal empty bumps but in the end it's still the same approach and behavior. Cue slippery slope. Always valuable to get feedback and have a moment of introspection, thank you.
Raid: shadow legends of LES
Yeah, I did want to point our it wasn't directly aimed at you! More the mindset of incessant spamming - it's just a competition between spammy providers muddying the feed like LET - LES is much better in that regard!
@FrankZ said:
Personally I only use providers who allow me to pay with PayPal. Although I have only issued a dispute one time in the last ten years. That was HostDoc when he deadpooled three days after I bought a big yearly VM.
That being said, given the expectations of some customers regarding LE products I can understand why some providers may not want to use services where they get a $30 charge back fee on a $10 yearly VPS because the customer does not understand why they cannot use 100% of the CPU all the time for transcoding.
IMO there are basicly three types of providers that make lowend offers.
New small providers just starting out who are willing to work for free to get a foot into the market, hoping that they will be able to raise prices and make some money later.
Older more established providers who make their money in a higher end market, who make low end offers on old equipment as a way of giving back to society or a hand up to the people from very low income countries. In other words charity. They back out of doing this when the thing they though was helping people stops being appreciated, or becomes too much work, or affects their real money making business.
Masochist, I would include providers like VirMach in this category. These are providers that have a strong belief system, are extremely tenacious, and who will do whatever it takes to overcome any obstacle in their path, even if these obstacles are of their own making. Long after most of us would have thrown in the towel, they still keep going.
The mythical low end provider that makes a living by selling 2 core, 2GB, 50GB NVMe, unlimited transfer Vms for $10 or $15 a year. Has the latest hardware, does not oversell, has great customer service, and does not mind customers wanting refunds whenever they feel the provider's service does not live up to the customers standards.
I know I said above there was only three, and then listed four. That is because the fourth one, in my opinion, does not really exist. Maybe I am completely off base in my thinking. I surely would not mind if someone was to convince me otherwise.
You're correct, four should have been scammed however
The mythical low end provider that makes a living by selling 2 core, 2GB, 50GB NVMe, unlimited transfer Vms for $10 or $15 a year. Has the latest hardware, does not oversell, has great customer service, and does not mind customers wanting refunds whenever they feel the provider's service does not live up to the customers standards.
They are not mythical, but just some REAL SUMMER HOST, who do makes a living out it every summer
@hostEONS said:
Lets say the VPS comes with 1 IPv4 IP
This is where it went wrong.
The VPS shall come with:
shared IPv4; no guarantee on not blocked by particular destination, as long as its pingable from most of the world
20 TCP+UDP+SCTP ports on IPv4
HTTP+HTTPS+DNS load balancer on IPv4
on-link /128 and routed /56
dual-stack BGP session
Any customer who wants dedicated IPv4 can either:
buy from you for the actual cost charged by your server provider, plus $1/month to cover administration and billing gateway fees
get their own from IPXO or ARIN wait-list and announce via BGP
You must ensure IPv6 is fully working.
Any outage of the IPv6 is considered a full outage and subject to SLA credits.
This is actually not a bad idea.
Those who wants internet to "just work" won't care if the IP is shared or not.
Those who care can go buy their own IP.
And /56 v6 has more IPs than you need.
LES as a product segment strikes me as fundamentally unsustainable. Not commercially necessarily...mean that more big picture. Often a 1 man band and people get bored/sick/swamped/depressed/life happens. They're just humans after all.
So my starting position is assuming the provider will go under & it's a question of whether it'll be online long enough for the math to work out vs say Do/vultr.
I doubt LES offers makes a difference to the above dynamic either way.
Comments
@FrankZ Your investment of time for the benefit of LES is really, really appreciated!
LES is great! There is no reason why we can't have EVERYTHING: great offers, great tech discussions, great how-to posts, plus great general fun posts!
For tech discussions, recently I've asked about how and when the FILE type was integrated into the C programming language. I quoted the GNU libc manual. I mentioned the B programming language. Another topic I mentioned recently was how the mainstream "Linus" Linux kernel gets imported into various GNU/Linux distributions. I mentioned the Koji build platform that Fedora uses. These topics didn't generate much response. What stops me from trying to start more tech discussions is my perception that people here have different tech interests and so might not especially care to participate in discussions I start.
I am slow about writing, so how-tos take a long time. If I write a how-to post, it takes a couple or three days to research and test it, then a couple or three days to make screenshots, write it, proofread, retest, adjust, do more research, rewrite, show to people involved, analyze their comments, make more adjustments, etc.
The high point of my enthusiasm in how-to writing usually seems to be the moment the post is finished. Both here and at OGF there sometimes is an additional, multiple day gap between submission and publication. I understand that the staff here and there need time to do their jobs well. Nevertheless, I think it would help motivate writers if a way could be found to decrease the time between submission and publication.
Staff that cares as much as you and Mason and Relja get a special place in my
Thank you all again so much!
Tom
I hope everyone gets the servers they want!
Thank you for your kind words regarding the staff here at LES. I have never previously had the pleasure of working with such a great group of guys. From my perspective it has been like a breath of fresh air.
I agree, and hope most other members do too.
Although I did comment in your "FILE" thread, most of the time your tech discussions are over my head. I do read them and find them enjoyable, it is just not something that I feel that I am knowledgeable enough to comment on. Maybe others feel the same way, and just because there are not a lot of comments in these threads does not mean that people are not reading and gaining something from them.
I do understand how much time and effort goes into writing a good how to or article. People who make the effort to do this show that they care about the community. I recognize this, and my hope is that others will join in this process because as the old saying goes, many hands make light work.
Thank you for pointing this out. It was something I had not considered before.
This made me chuckle, and put a smile on my face.
I am currently traveling in mostly remote areas until sometime in April 2024. Consequently DM's sent to me will go unanswered during this time.
For staff assistance or support issues please use the helpdesk ticket system at https://support.lowendspirit.com/index.php?a=add
Much appreciated at the time, and also now.
Most of my tech discussions are over my head too!
Thanks!
I am so, so familiar with this feeling. Exactly as you describe.
Thanks for your always very kind words!
I hope everyone gets the servers they want!
I think LES deals are unsustainable for most of the NEW Providers, old providers who have tons of IP it's a different story.
Lets run some numbers:
These days anybody can get a dedicated server for around $50 per month or even less, that can act as a low end VPS Node, may or may not have RAID, but still the client does not know about it.
Usually these servers comes with around 64GB RAM and 1G Port speed
So if a provider is selling VPS with 1G RAM they can easily sell about 50-60 VPS per server, unless they want to oversell
So if they sell a VPS for $12/yr and if they make the server full or sell 50-60 VPS then they reach breakeven (not yet included a lot of other expenses)
So now if they do it for $9 per year they are selling it at a loss and makes it unsustainable.
Now lets talk about other expenses.
Lets say the VPS comes with 1 IPv4 IP, if you get it from IPXO etc... you may get it for about 0.4-5 per IP, but then again you need to pay atleast for a /24 so unless you have about 5 nodes, it's just not possible to get these IP
And if you buy IP from your server provider, they all charge atleast $1 per IP (ofcourse there are few exceptions), so if you take $50 server with atleast 50 IP to sell 50 VPS, you are paying $100 per month
So now the basic cost of VPS is $2 per month for the provider
WAIT ... what about payment processor charges ?
That again varies, but if we assume it 4% ? then even it adds it to expenses
Above all of it you need to even count WHMCS or billing software license fees, support team if you have any
So these LES offers are not really sustainable
hostEONS.com - 9 Locations for VPS (US and EU).. Free Blesta License, Free Windows 2019 License and more. Shared DA Hosting. AS142036 .. Ryzen 7950X Based VDS in SLC, LA and Dallas
Yeah, I did want to point our it wasn't directly aimed at you! More the mindset of incessant spamming - it's just a competition between spammy providers muddying the feed like LET - LES is much better in that regard!
Chris on https://hostingforums.net/
You're correct, four should have been scammed however
Chris on https://hostingforums.net/
They are not mythical, but just some REAL SUMMER HOST, who do makes a living out it every summer
hostEONS.com - 9 Locations for VPS (US and EU).. Free Blesta License, Free Windows 2019 License and more. Shared DA Hosting. AS142036 .. Ryzen 7950X Based VDS in SLC, LA and Dallas
This is where it went wrong.
The VPS shall come with:
Any customer who wants dedicated IPv4 can either:
You must ensure IPv6 is fully working.
Any outage of the IPv6 is considered a full outage and subject to SLA credits.
ServerFactory aff best VPS; HostBrr aff best storage.
This is actually not a bad idea.
Those who wants internet to "just work" won't care if the IP is shared or not.
Those who care can go buy their own IP.
And /56 v6 has more IPs than you need.
I would say even /60 is good enough.
The all seeing eye sees everything...
LES as a product segment strikes me as fundamentally unsustainable. Not commercially necessarily...mean that more big picture. Often a 1 man band and people get bored/sick/swamped/depressed/life happens. They're just humans after all.
So my starting position is assuming the provider will go under & it's a question of whether it'll be online long enough for the math to work out vs say Do/vultr.
I doubt LES offers makes a difference to the above dynamic either way.