I understand your point, but there should be also some common sense regarding the offers in the sense that are not here for charity but to do business. Balance where we would not put business above ordinary forum member's word if you understand what I mean.
We are here to discuss hosts, to share experiences about hosts, to praise, to warn ... to build a community where sales are an extension of that and not the other way around.
I completely agree with what @Mason above said about "Except that there's a difference between actually providing a review/feedback vs army of angry MJJs who violated the AUP and got banned pissing in a provider thread" and the former is what I, as a reader, still want to read in relevant offer thread instead of being removed at sight.
As long that's not just a business, and I believe LES isn't just a business, things @skorous stated above are crucial part of the offer threads I believe because otherwise you can as well lock them after the initial post. Balance where every feedback, even if negative, about service isn't considered as bashing. We also praise hosts in their sales thread, don't we?
Personally, posting an invoice number/order is a no-go in our point of view, as that blows away the privacy, not to mention if your billing software gets hacked, then it is easy to associate the person on forum(s) with the declared names in that billing software.
Showing invoice numbers from many users do provide some "security/assurance" that the provider/product is good that is also true-ish at some extent.
If a sales thread is empty, some might think that the offer is dead or the one selling or product is not worthy, that is also true. This is a case for new comers usually ( us included ), but even then that does not mean that there is no sale.
As I know, enlighten me if I am wrong, visits on the thread do keep it up on the forum. So if the offer is good enough, it will stay visible in that case.
Yah it sucks when your sales thread goes down in 3 days, but hey, this is life, own it for god's sake.
As for the double the "DD's" if you post, well here we have a different point of view.
Either you make an offer from start or not. I get that it looks cool in the tread name, it's catchy, but just be direct from the start, i personally value that more, but that is me/us.
I as a provider can use other metrics to encourage sales, limited time offer, all purchases made in the first 48 ours get 2 x downtime for example if we really like the 2 x whatever....
Fact is that people like interaction, in that case, just post a thx got one, nice offer, a joke, funny gif, etc.. just not sensitive data that can identify you later.
EDIT:
There is something that bothers my eyes more than double the chicken, "post that X is the best on Y forum" I mean com'on, what are you , like 14?
@Mason said:
Ultimately, this will always be a touchy and subjective area. What is deemed as "bashing" for you may not align with my view. And how I view it may not align with other staff members. Will we make mistakes on occasion? Absolutely.
^^This!
But that's an acceptable risk in my book so that threads don't devolve into useless nonsense that plague certain other sites.
Maybe there are benefits to the "comment to double or to win" offers, but, overall, I vote that LES is better without them.
Thanks to @bikegremlin for posting this thread so that we all can participate in the discussion and the decision!
Spam: No, flat out disallow it. I'm out of ideas of on that front anyways
What I'd like to do/see: hosts finding a way to do something actually engaging. If I'm being honest I think this is where LES has a 'leg-up' over OGF, and when we're talking SEO/attracting organic newcomers you'll do better to have true natural conversations and threads. The post-bump spam is just a symptom of a deeper structural issue. I suppose you could also allow it and then 'sink threads' but that feels like a lot of manual work and/or potential avenue for abuse if automated.
What I'd like to be able to start doing is have an offer thread about something 'new' we're doing, and maybe a little mini-"blog" or insight as to what the hardware is, some photos of what we assembled, discussion as to why (from a provider perspective on re: tech and business/financial decisions), etc but not be punished for it. That is likely possible as-is here given that you don't have as much of a spam issue/culture around it, but probably not a bad idea to codify moving forward.
@root said:
I do not agree with sinking. Reviews and complaints on a specific offer should bump the thread into front page. We all like popcorn drama as well as benchmarks.
From a provider POV: I'd definitely be okay with something along these lines @bikegremlin, and I think it would help keeps hosts on their toes in a healthy way. However I also fully agree (and wouldn't want) my offer threads turning into a circus because an MJJ that charged back on us and has severe multiple personality disorder issues loses his mind and creates 4-6 threads in an hour and spams onto every existing thread I have, repeatedly. A pointed review about the services on offer is absolutely fair game, angry MJJ actions or personal vendetta tier stuff needs its own thread (where proof and an attempt to reply to accusations is possible).
I don't think you want to cultivate a culture that veers too far in either direction: whether it's the strangeness surrounding a certain OGF+Provider protected relationship or a spot where hosts just have every last thing torn apart by people attempting to force drama/be pedantic. It would get old, and I think a lot of hosts just wouldn't bother continuing. I still think users should have the ability to pitchfork a bad actor out of town, though.
@cybertech said:
double bandwidth no
double ram/cpu/disk yes
But why? It would bring just a ton of spam without any pleasure to go through the thread. Even if there are some vital service-related posts they get buried under tons of "please double ..." zero-value comments. Imho. threads like that devaluate forum quality.
This exactly, it offers absolutely zero value to members of the forum and that's how I'd treat it - they'd just offer a coupon if they want to make the offer. It's low tier marketing manipulation of a thread to boost themselves.
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IMO no spam, or mayyyybe the 'let it sink' option. But LES needs to be about quality, not quantity. That plus a lot fewer assholes is what makes this place awesome
Personally, I hate the FOMO feeling that those threads create (especially the "top post count wins a prize!" type ones). FOMO ends up just making most people feel bad, and can foster a negative feedback loop. Flash sales on holidays are one thing because at least you can predict when those will happen, but the top post count ones, those are really just rewarding whoever has a life/job/lack of either/ideal timezone more than they do real participation.
But things like posting a specific theme, like asking for a picture of your keyboard, or whatever, or telling about your "first experience with XYZ" or whatever more-clever-than-what-I-can-think-of ideas, that's better.
Also, big big thank you to those who mentioned the privacy concerns about linking a forum name to a provider account via invoice orders. That has been a big concern of mine and I haven't said anything about it, but I also stop and wonder if it will somehow come back to bite me if I post the "wrong thing" about a provider I currently use.
@bikegremlin said: To clarify - the "double bandwidth" referrs to any similar marketing: "post in the thread to get XXX," "most comments to get YYY" and similar.
I’m somewhat less fussed on the invoice to get double bandwidth given it’s usually a post or two a person. Definitely however don’t like the “most posts win” or any sort of lottery where posting more increases the odds of winning something.
I do think using the sellers ticket system makes more sense but, and as an end user I appreciate it’s traceable and I’m not left wondering if a post will be missed or not.
In my opinion, the "double bandwidth" trick is exactly the same as influencers buying views from a click farm. It's a way to manipulate the figures to look more interesting than you actually are. Just like influencers that cant get enough attention, providers buy posts from their mindless drones and pay them with double bandwidth. It costs the provider nothing and the drones think they earned something.
I don't mind the occasional giveaway or things like that, but the "just post something" threads are just trash, it floods the forum with pure garbage. The actual post that maybe says something interesting about an offer might be found on page 38 of 55, while every other page is just "dbl bw plz" repeated in absurdum. I am not a fan.
So my question is this. If this is the only way to stay relevant at the OGF, do you prefer a provider to not post a double bandwidth offer here and therefore leave the members here worse off?
There’s no need to do it here for the offer to stay at the top; On the OGF you need to do it, else your thread doesn’t get the exposure that others - that do it - get.
We do this offer here in order to not put members of LES at disadvantage.
@Clouvider said: do you prefer a provider to not post a double bandwidth offer here and therefore leave the members worse off?
just already include double (or maybe triple?) bandwidth for members here, or alternatively mention in the offer here that double bandwidth can be requested by raising a ticket (and if someone posts a comment here to double bandwidth, it gets halved instead).
@Clouvider said: do you prefer a provider to not post a double bandwidth offer here and therefore leave the members worse off?
just already include double (or maybe triple?) bandwidth for members here, or alternatively mention in the offer here that double bandwidth can be requested by raising a ticket (and if someone posts a comment here to double bandwidth, it gets halved instead).
Theres no way a provider will create dedicated packages to one forum. Most certainly nobody wants additional ticket load. You can’t have it both ways.
@Clouvider said:
So my question is this. If this is the only way to stay relevant at the OGF, do you prefer a provider to not post a double bandwidth offer here and therefore leave the members worse off?
Can a provider practically sell "half the bandwidth" on LES?
Yes.
My grandmother used to say this when I was a kid (usually when I did something stupid ), and it took years to really understand the meaning:
"Everything you do, you do it to yourself."
My thoughts about discounts, bargaining and doing business in general (related to bike-service, but 100% applicable to hosting, freelancer deals and other stuff too): "Ask for better, not for cheaper" (if this doesn't get me banned on LES, nothing will! )
Not claiming to be right, that's just what's worked for me and what feels right - for me.
Please do not take it the wrong way, take this as a different opinion/approach.
Giving double the chicken is a marketing tool, today pushed by the majority of sellers. Just do the offer straight up with the included Bandwidth and be done with it.
I know that this might have some complications in setting up the services in the billing software, other than that I see no problem in it.
For example, we try to do different promos on each forum, it takes more time to prepare them, but at least my team get's to be familiar with the promo system.
It is not about the BW, CPU or RAM, but if you look at a sales thread, it looks like INV XXXX, YYY, XYZ.
I would rather see funny gif pics, or have some come after me with pitchforks ( in the funniest way possible ). Truth is it looks dull, not even like a "bazar" sale.
Or this is the new standard, and some like us just do not get it?
Our bandwidth package listed on the website is what we offer in general; we have a special that goes on these forums that is not offered through other mediums.
Question I asked is very much valid - we don’t mind not posting it here, if that’s the wish of the community.
It won’t magically increase the very generous package we already offer on our website. It will just put people ordering through here at a disadvantage, if that’s the wish of the community.
@Clouvider said: do you prefer a provider to not post a double bandwidth offer here and therefore leave the members worse off?
just already include double (or maybe triple?) bandwidth for members here, or alternatively mention in the offer here that double bandwidth can be requested by raising a ticket (and if someone posts a comment here to double bandwidth, it gets halved instead).
Theres no way a provider will create dedicated packages to one forum. Most certainly nobody wants additional ticket load. You can’t have it both ways.
I think it could be done easily enough if you got creative. Use a separate coupon code on LES (or for general non-spam forum offers) and just have standing rule to double bandwidth when that coupon code is used? No tickets needed, no forum spam needed. Just once per day someone checks those coupons and applies it, no more/less work than tracking down invoice numbers or whatever else. Would be easy enough to even automate based on coupon code depending on billing software.
Can a provider practically sell "half the bandwidth" on LES?
Yes.
Pitchforks would come out. Low end detectives know when I am hungry before even I do.
My thoughts about discounts, bargaining and doing business in general (related to bike-service, but 100% applicable to hosting, freelancer deals and other stuff too): "Ask for better, not for cheaper" (if this doesn't get me banned on LES, nothing will! )
There is a lot of truth here. Especially in dedicated servers. We've had a few customers figure this out.
Yes, storage should always be doubled, but standard deals not. If you just idling, it can be also the half of it. In an indirect way, the provider looses nothing.
500GB? It should be doubled! 1TB? It should be doubled! 2 TB It should be doubled. 5 TB? It should be doubled. 250GB? It should be doubled. Doubled. Doubled. Doubled. Always doubled!
imho. your comment makes no sense. Package is what it is.
So much doubling of bandwidth, storage, intelligence and whatever in this thread. I am surprised nobody asked to double the size of their "Love Muscle" so far.
Comments
I understand your point, but there should be also some common sense regarding the offers in the sense that are not here for charity but to do business. Balance where we would not put business above ordinary forum member's word if you understand what I mean.
We are here to discuss hosts, to share experiences about hosts, to praise, to warn ... to build a community where sales are an extension of that and not the other way around.
I completely agree with what @Mason above said about "Except that there's a difference between actually providing a review/feedback vs army of angry MJJs who violated the AUP and got banned pissing in a provider thread" and the former is what I, as a reader, still want to read in relevant offer thread instead of being removed at sight.
As long that's not just a business, and I believe LES isn't just a business, things @skorous stated above are crucial part of the offer threads I believe because otherwise you can as well lock them after the initial post. Balance where every feedback, even if negative, about service isn't considered as bashing. We also praise hosts in their sales thread, don't we?
Double bandwidth does not double YABS score, unless you double port speed too.
Accepting submissions for IPv6 less than /64 Hall of Incompetence.
Personally, posting an invoice number/order is a no-go in our point of view, as that blows away the privacy, not to mention if your billing software gets hacked, then it is easy to associate the person on forum(s) with the declared names in that billing software.
Showing invoice numbers from many users do provide some "security/assurance" that the provider/product is good that is also true-ish at some extent.
If a sales thread is empty, some might think that the offer is dead or the one selling or product is not worthy, that is also true. This is a case for new comers usually ( us included ), but even then that does not mean that there is no sale.
As I know, enlighten me if I am wrong, visits on the thread do keep it up on the forum. So if the offer is good enough, it will stay visible in that case.
Yah it sucks when your sales thread goes down in 3 days, but hey, this is life, own it for god's sake.
As for the double the "DD's" if you post, well here we have a different point of view.
Either you make an offer from start or not. I get that it looks cool in the tread name, it's catchy, but just be direct from the start, i personally value that more, but that is me/us.
I as a provider can use other metrics to encourage sales, limited time offer, all purchases made in the first 48 ours get 2 x downtime for example
if we really like the 2 x whatever....
Fact is that people like interaction, in that case, just post a thx got one, nice offer, a joke, funny gif, etc.. just not sensitive data that can identify you later.
EDIT:
There is something that bothers my eyes more than double the chicken, "post that X is the best on Y forum" I mean com'on, what are you , like 14?
Double bandwidth offers - Nay
Host-C - VPS Services Provider - AS211462
"If there is no struggle there is no progress"
^^This!
Maybe there are benefits to the "comment to double or to win" offers, but, overall, I vote that LES is better without them.
Thanks to @bikegremlin for posting this thread so that we all can participate in the discussion and the decision!
Best wishes!
I hope everyone gets the servers they want!
Spam: No, flat out disallow it. I'm out of ideas of on that front anyways
What I'd like to do/see: hosts finding a way to do something actually engaging. If I'm being honest I think this is where LES has a 'leg-up' over OGF, and when we're talking SEO/attracting organic newcomers you'll do better to have true natural conversations and threads. The post-bump spam is just a symptom of a deeper structural issue. I suppose you could also allow it and then 'sink threads' but that feels like a lot of manual work and/or potential avenue for abuse if automated.
What I'd like to be able to start doing is have an offer thread about something 'new' we're doing, and maybe a little mini-"blog" or insight as to what the hardware is, some photos of what we assembled, discussion as to why (from a provider perspective on re: tech and business/financial decisions), etc but not be punished for it. That is likely possible as-is here given that you don't have as much of a spam issue/culture around it, but probably not a bad idea to codify moving forward.
From a provider POV: I'd definitely be okay with something along these lines @bikegremlin, and I think it would help keeps hosts on their toes in a healthy way. However I also fully agree (and wouldn't want) my offer threads turning into a circus because an MJJ that charged back on us and has severe multiple personality disorder issues loses his mind and creates 4-6 threads in an hour and spams onto every existing thread I have, repeatedly. A pointed review about the services on offer is absolutely fair game, angry MJJ actions or personal vendetta tier stuff needs its own thread (where proof and an attempt to reply to accusations is possible).
I don't think you want to cultivate a culture that veers too far in either direction: whether it's the strangeness surrounding a certain OGF+Provider protected relationship or a spot where hosts just have every last thing torn apart by people attempting to force drama/be pedantic. It would get old, and I think a lot of hosts just wouldn't bother continuing. I still think users should have the ability to pitchfork a bad actor out of town, though.
NVMe VPS | Ryzen 7950X VDS | Dedicated Servers -- Crunchbits.com
please double my wife 🤠
Hi @Ganonk -- took care of this
Thank You again for growing your wife with us!
NVMe VPS | Ryzen 7950X VDS | Dedicated Servers -- Crunchbits.com
This exactly, it offers absolutely zero value to members of the forum and that's how I'd treat it - they'd just offer a coupon if they want to make the offer. It's low tier marketing manipulation of a thread to boost themselves.
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🌐 Blesta.club - Blesta Modules, Plugins, Gateways and more
💬 Join our community today and start your journey!
───────────────────────────────────
double bandwidth no
double price/ram/cpu/disk/push-ups yes
IMO no spam, or mayyyybe the 'let it sink' option. But LES needs to be about quality, not quantity. That plus a lot fewer assholes is what makes this place awesome
Personally, I hate the FOMO feeling that those threads create (especially the "top post count wins a prize!" type ones). FOMO ends up just making most people feel bad, and can foster a negative feedback loop. Flash sales on holidays are one thing because at least you can predict when those will happen, but the top post count ones, those are really just rewarding whoever has a life/job/lack of either/ideal timezone more than they do real participation.
But things like posting a specific theme, like asking for a picture of your keyboard, or whatever, or telling about your "first experience with XYZ" or whatever more-clever-than-what-I-can-think-of ideas, that's better.
Also, big big thank you to those who mentioned the privacy concerns about linking a forum name to a provider account via invoice orders. That has been a big concern of mine and I haven't said anything about it, but I also stop and wonder if it will somehow come back to bite me if I post the "wrong thing" about a provider I currently use.
I’m somewhat less fussed on the invoice to get double bandwidth given it’s usually a post or two a person. Definitely however don’t like the “most posts win” or any sort of lottery where posting more increases the odds of winning something.
I do think using the sellers ticket system makes more sense but, and as an end user I appreciate it’s traceable and I’m not left wondering if a post will be missed or not.
In my opinion, the "double bandwidth" trick is exactly the same as influencers buying views from a click farm. It's a way to manipulate the figures to look more interesting than you actually are. Just like influencers that cant get enough attention, providers buy posts from their mindless drones and pay them with double bandwidth. It costs the provider nothing and the drones think they earned something.
I don't mind the occasional giveaway or things like that, but the "just post something" threads are just trash, it floods the forum with pure garbage. The actual post that maybe says something interesting about an offer might be found on page 38 of 55, while every other page is just "dbl bw plz" repeated in absurdum. I am not a fan.
So my question is this. If this is the only way to stay relevant at the OGF, do you prefer a provider to not post a double bandwidth offer here and therefore leave the members here worse off?
There’s no need to do it here for the offer to stay at the top; On the OGF you need to do it, else your thread doesn’t get the exposure that others - that do it - get.
We do this offer here in order to not put members of LES at disadvantage.
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 11 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
just already include double (or maybe triple?) bandwidth for members here, or alternatively mention in the offer here that double bandwidth can be requested by raising a ticket (and if someone posts a comment here to double bandwidth, it gets halved instead).
Theres no way a provider will create dedicated packages to one forum. Most certainly nobody wants additional ticket load. You can’t have it both ways.
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 11 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
Can a provider practically sell "half the bandwidth" on LES?
Yes.
My grandmother used to say this when I was a kid (usually when I did something stupid
), and it took years to really understand the meaning:
"Everything you do, you do it to yourself."
My thoughts about discounts, bargaining and doing business in general (related to bike-service, but 100% applicable to hosting, freelancer deals and other stuff too): "Ask for better, not for cheaper" (if this doesn't get me banned on LES, nothing will!
)
Relja
Relja of House Novović, the First of His Name, King of the Plains, the Breaker of Chains, WirMach Wolves pack member
BikeGremlin's web-hosting reviews
@Clouvider
Please do not take it the wrong way, take this as a different opinion/approach.
Giving double the chicken is a marketing tool, today pushed by the majority of sellers. Just do the offer straight up with the included Bandwidth and be done with it.
I know that this might have some complications in setting up the services in the billing software, other than that I see no problem in it.
For example, we try to do different promos on each forum, it takes more time to prepare them, but at least my team get's to be familiar with the promo system.
It is not about the BW, CPU or RAM, but if you look at a sales thread, it looks like INV XXXX, YYY, XYZ.
I would rather see funny gif pics, or have some come after me with pitchforks ( in the funniest way possible
). Truth is it looks dull, not even like a "bazar" sale.
Or this is the new standard, and some like us just do not get it?
EDIT:
100% true
Host-C - VPS Services Provider - AS211462
"If there is no struggle there is no progress"
Our bandwidth package listed on the website is what we offer in general; we have a special that goes on these forums that is not offered through other mediums.
Question I asked is very much valid - we don’t mind not posting it here, if that’s the wish of the community.
It won’t magically increase the very generous package we already offer on our website. It will just put people ordering through here at a disadvantage, if that’s the wish of the community.
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 11 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
so cute 😹
I think it could be done easily enough if you got creative. Use a separate coupon code on LES (or for general non-spam forum offers) and just have standing rule to double bandwidth when that coupon code is used? No tickets needed, no forum spam needed. Just once per day someone checks those coupons and applies it, no more/less work than tracking down invoice numbers or whatever else. Would be easy enough to even automate based on coupon code depending on billing software.
Pitchforks would come out. Low end detectives know when I am hungry before even I do.
There is a lot of truth here. Especially in dedicated servers. We've had a few customers figure this out.
NVMe VPS | Ryzen 7950X VDS | Dedicated Servers -- Crunchbits.com
Question - how many customers actually use up all of their double bandwidth? Every month?
Edit - and without otherwise abusing the service in some way?
Keith
Maybe 1% or less.
@lleddewk
Fair point
@ascicode
It really depends on the product. For storage VPS, that percentage is much higher.
Host-C - VPS Services Provider - AS211462
"If there is no struggle there is no progress"
Yes, storage should always be doubled, but standard deals not. If you just idling, it can be also the half of it. In an indirect way, the provider looses nothing.
"please double my intelligence"
Jokes aside, I would say that providers could do a form/ticketing system, enabling automation too and not ruining the threads with spam.
youtube.com/watch?v=k1BneeJTDcU
Doubled from what? What's the starting point? ...
Bandwidth of storage vps.
Doubled from what? What's the starting point?
500GB? It should be doubled! 1TB? It should be doubled! 2 TB It should be doubled. 5 TB? It should be doubled. 250GB? It should be doubled. Doubled. Doubled. Doubled. Always doubled!
imho. your comment makes no sense. Package is what it is.
So much doubling of bandwidth, storage, intelligence and whatever in this thread. I am surprised nobody asked to double the size of their "Love Muscle" so far.
Stop the planet! I want to get off!
How about we let you keep your IQ score and double its standard deviation?