How do I avoid scammy hosts?

SocksAreComfortable · June 26

Got this email this morning from NordicVM:

Dear Valued Customer,

We hope this message finds you well. We are writing to inform you of an important update regarding your NordicVM service.

Effective immediately, all services that have been priced at $30 or below per year will no longer be active unless a new invoice of $100 is paid. This adjustment is necessary due to recent price changes, as outlined in our Terms of Service, which allow NordicVM to update service prices as needed.

To ensure uninterrupted service, please settle the $100 invoice at your earliest convenience. If you have any questions or need assistance, our support team is here to help.

Thank you for your understanding and continued support.

Best regards,

The NordicVM Team

Luckily, I had already cancelled my service with NordicVM a few weeks back because it was so problematic, so I don't have to actually deal with this obvious scam tactic. On their website, it won't even let me change any of my account information, such as my email address, so yay for that.

Just a month ago I was dealing with Hostaris, who got "bought out" and has since completely stopped working, not even their website is online anymore, and their discord basically got disbanded out of nowhere.

Not all my purchased services have turned out to be scams. I won't mention names because I doubt they'd want to be listed in the same post as these, but I've been very happy with some of them. But...far too many of them have been scammy or deadpools or had other issues. What suggestions or advice do you guys have to avoid this type of provider, while still looking for deals?

Neoon · June 26

That is some next level shit, rare even on LET.

MikeA · June 26

Just sounds like another unsustainable marketing promo that they want to kill off. It's well known that's what some companies do to attract people. Offer $10/y for 1gb ram or something to get attention and count the days.

dev_vps · June 26

Terms of Service, which allow NordicVM to update service prices as needed.

They very well know that very few actually care to read TOS

_MS_ · June 26

Teenagers running businesses.

SocksAreComfortable · June 26

@MikeA said:
Just sounds like another unsustainable marketing promo that they want to kill off. It's well known that's what some companies do to attract people. Offer $10/y for 1gb ram or something to get attention and count the days.

For someone who does not work in a related field (not even tech-based), and thus does this for hobby/personal use, what would be some signs that a deal is unsustainable?

Jab · June 26

@SocksAreComfortable said:

@MikeA said:
Just sounds like another unsustainable marketing promo that they want to kill off. It's well known that's what some companies do to attract people. Offer $10/y for 1gb ram or something to get attention and count the days.

For someone who does not work in a related field (not even tech-based), and thus does this for hobby/personal use, what would be some signs that a deal is unsustainable?

if @ehab or @me buys then unsustainable

dev_vps · June 26

@SocksAreComfortable said:

@MikeA said:
Just sounds like another unsustainable marketing promo that they want to kill off. It's well known that's what some companies do to attract people. Offer $10/y for 1gb ram or something to get attention and count the days.

For someone who does not work in a related field (not even tech-based), and thus does this for hobby/personal use, what would be some signs that a deal is unsustainable?

most of the deals under $5 per month

MikeA · June 26

@SocksAreComfortable said:

@MikeA said:
Just sounds like another unsustainable marketing promo that they want to kill off. It's well known that's what some companies do to attract people. Offer $10/y for 1gb ram or something to get attention and count the days.

For someone who does not work in a related field (not even tech-based), and thus does this for hobby/personal use, what would be some signs that a deal is unsustainable?

Offering VPS at or under cost of the colo space or hardware.. Anything under $20/y for a VPS (unless it's a container like OVZ) is really just not worth it. That's $1.70/m for a VPS. If the provider leases IPs that's under $1.20 for the hardware, bandwidth, taxes, transaction fees, and support. Better off to find a larger server like 4-8GB RAM for double the cost which is still super cheap. But I don't know what deals they sold, I can't find any besides their 10 euro/year 1GB RAM HDD plan.

If it's under $1/GB RAM and the plan has less than 2GB RAM on it I'd always expect it to fold or increase eventually. Cost for companies generally never goes down, only up. Selling high RAM plans cheaper is not as bad since you can have some pretty dense systems but still you have the upfront cost there and that kills your profit for a year or two if you're using newer hardware.

Companies like Contabo are really the ones that show what's sustainable but still cheap. There's a reason Contabo doesn't sell smaller memory servers.

My limited stock special plans are basically $1/GB or slightly higher and they start at 8GB RAM. These are basically sold at cost for the hardware/space/IPs. And those would only make actual profit if I had a full rack of hardware that's actually utilized. Single colo servers, quarter cabinet of servers, no business can offer that as an actual product on small scale (also why Contabo is successful, they're huge.)

Edit: but this is just my opinion, I definitely don't have a huge scale to work with

dev_vps · June 26

That is why Hetzner and Netcup can offer such low price premium VPS

$0.90 per month VPS from netcup is working great.

AuroraZero · June 26

@SocksAreComfortable there have been less than a handful of hosts I have touched with less than a year under their belts in the years I have been around and that is a long assed time.

I don't jump on the bottom of the barrel bandwagon and see what happens. Some I can smell the fishiness in the way they present themselves. Others the numbers don't, or can't add up.

All ot comes down to is doing some leg work and investigation.

SocksAreComfortable · June 26

@AuroraZero said:
@SocksAreComfortable there have been less than a handful of hosts I have touched with less than a year under their belts in the years I have been around and that is a long assed time.

I don't jump on the bottom of the barrel bandwagon and see what happens. Some I can smell the fishiness in the way they present themselves. Others the numbers don't, or can't add up.

All ot comes down to is doing some leg work and investigation.

Perhaps what I should be asking is: what do you look for in investigating a host? Like, I have no idea what it costs to run a VPS or dedi, or what power costs in a datacenter are, or if a host is leasing or using owned hardware, etc., so what are some examples of things you look for? Or a way you estimate if something is "bottom of the barrel"?

AuroraZero · June 26

@SocksAreComfortable said:

@AuroraZero said:
@SocksAreComfortable there have been less than a handful of hosts I have touched with less than a year under their belts in the years I have been around and that is a long assed time.

I don't jump on the bottom of the barrel bandwagon and see what happens. Some I can smell the fishiness in the way they present themselves. Others the numbers don't, or can't add up.

All ot comes down to is doing some leg work and investigation.

Perhaps what I should be asking is: what do you look for in investigating a host? Like, I have no idea what it costs to run a VPS or dedi, or what power costs in a datacenter are, or if a host is leasing or using owned hardware, etc., so what are some examples of things you look for? Or a way you estimate if something is "bottom of the barrel"?

You can look at what it costs to colo hardware in the D.C. what the IPs cost to both rent and buy. Cost of the server, rent and buy.

That will give you a rough estimate of their monthly/yearly costs for just product. That does not include any staff.

If the deal they offer falls below a certain threshold for me it is a no go.

For instance if it costs let's just say $250 a month for hardware. They offer $10 a year deals.

You take 250 x 12 = $3000 a year just to run the hardware. Divide that by 10 = 300. So they need 300 clients to just break even on that server not including staff. It's doable but, not cost effective for a newer host with no rep.

Now if someone like @MikeA offered it, with his knowledge, rep, and backing then that changes things considerably.

cmeerw · June 27

@SocksAreComfortable said:

@AuroraZero said:
@SocksAreComfortable there have been less than a handful of hosts I have touched with less than a year under their belts in the years I have been around and that is a long assed time.

I don't jump on the bottom of the barrel bandwagon and see what happens. Some I can smell the fishiness in the way they present themselves. Others the numbers don't, or can't add up.

All ot comes down to is doing some leg work and investigation.

Perhaps what I should be asking is: what do you look for in investigating a host? Like, I have no idea what it costs to run a VPS or dedi, or what power costs in a datacenter are, or if a host is leasing or using owned hardware, etc., so what are some examples of things you look for? Or a way you estimate if something is "bottom of the barrel"?

A few (non-technical) things I usually do:

does the web site clearly say who is running the show (where is the company registered, etc. instead of just showing a trade name with no information who is behind it)
do the terms and conditions make sense and are they fair
if it's a UK limited company, look up the information at Companies House, how long has it been incorporated, who are the directors and are there any accounts yet - if none of the directors are based in the UK, it's a huge red flag; similar if it says something like "Accounts Overdue"

yoursunny · June 27

@MikeA said:
Anything under $20/y for a VPS (unless it's a container like OVZ) is really just not worth it. That's $1.70/m for a VPS. If the provider leases IPs that's under $1.20 for the hardware, bandwidth, taxes, transaction fees, and support. Better off to find a larger server like 4-8GB RAM for double the cost which is still super cheap.

I have these $20/year dealz, KVM & dedicated IPv4:

AdvinServers, Mumbai, 4GB, $6/year
VirMach, Miami, 1920MB, $8.88/year
Crunchbits, Liberty Lake, 3GB, $11.69/year

All these are beloved providers that have operated for many years.

arirang · June 27

@yoursunny said:
I have these $20/year dealz, KVM & dedicated IPv4:

AdvinServers, Mumbai, 4GB, $6/year

VirMach, Miami, 1920MB, $8.88/year

Crunchbits, Liberty Lake, 3GB, $11.69/year

All these are beloved providers that have operated for many years.

Virmach supports his claim.

MikeA · June 27

@yoursunny said:

@MikeA said:
Anything under $20/y for a VPS (unless it's a container like OVZ) is really just not worth it. That's $1.70/m for a VPS. If the provider leases IPs that's under $1.20 for the hardware, bandwidth, taxes, transaction fees, and support. Better off to find a larger server like 4-8GB RAM for double the cost which is still super cheap.

I have these $20/year dealz, KVM & dedicated IPv4:

AdvinServers, Mumbai, 4GB, $6/year

VirMach, Miami, 1920MB, $8.88/year

Crunchbits, Liberty Lake, 3GB, $11.69/year

All these are beloved providers that have operated for many years.

No.. The two deals you have, both were very limited black friday or general giveaways for LET marketing. I'd guess only a handful of them were given out to people back in 2022-23 and that was it. Some people will give out a few unsustainable deals like that, like I said, all marketing and not publicly available. If either of those companies let anyone order those deals anytime they wouldn't be in business.

teamacc · June 27

@SocksAreComfortable said:
What suggestions or advice do you guys have to avoid this type of provider, while still looking for deals?

Dont buy on LowEndBox:
https://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/3075996/#Comment_3075996

MikeA · June 27

@teamacc said:

@SocksAreComfortable said:
What suggestions or advice do you guys have to avoid this type of provider, while still looking for deals?

Dont buy on LowEndBox:
https://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/3075996/#Comment_3075996

Man I've never seen this post lol. crazy.

cold · June 27

@dev_vps said:
Terms of Service, which allow NordicVM to update service prices as needed.
They very well know that very few actually care to read TOS

that doesnt mean that its Ok to triple the price.

skhron · June 27

@SocksAreComfortable said: What suggestions or advice do you guys have to avoid this type of provider, while still looking for deals?

I would definitely recommend not rush for "too good" type of offers if host is younger than 1 year. Otherwise, you can figure out how good it is going by searching reviews, feedback on forums.

Also it is really important to check TOS and AUP. After fast inspection I have stumbled upon frightening clause in their TOS:

IN CASE OF EXTREME ABUSE WE WILL AUTOCHARGE ANY AMOUNT AUTOMATICALLY IN ORDER TO COVER DAMAGES CRAETED.

However, even after such research there are no guarantees that your experience will be smooth. Be sure to make offsite backups to a different provider and don't pay more than you are ready to lose.

carlin0 · June 27

It also takes a bit of luck, unfortunately every now and then the scammer happens

root · June 27

So many cautious people around here. I prefer to live the full adrenaline of not knowing what will happen next. If the offer is too good to be true and unsustainable, I will try to grab it.

Research? Ain't nobody got time for that! By the time research is complete that flash deal might be gone.

elliotc · June 27

@SocksAreComfortable said:

@MikeA said:
Just sounds like another unsustainable marketing promo that they want to kill off. It's well known that's what some companies do to attract people. Offer $10/y for 1gb ram or something to get attention and count the days.

For someone who does not work in a related field (not even tech-based), and thus does this for hobby/personal use, what would be some signs that a deal is unsustainable?

Basically most deals post on green forums.
No offence, but I truly don't understand how peoples buy food when selling vps under <7.

localhost · June 27

Best is to take caution, always. If it is too good to be true, it probably is. If the interactions are forced over standard channels like discord instead of a ticketing platform, I'd be wary.

If the content you choose to host with the provider is critical, have backups in place. Have Disaster Recovery protocols created. Test the backups. Have failivers planned. Test backups, again. This applies to even reputed providers.

There have been instances in the past where certain provider called all users "family" and one good sunny day, the servers went kaput as the provider stopped paying the bills and things went south.

At the end, it's your $ at stake.

crunchbits · June 27

@SocksAreComfortable said:

@AuroraZero said:
@SocksAreComfortable there have been less than a handful of hosts I have touched with less than a year under their belts in the years I have been around and that is a long assed time.

I don't jump on the bottom of the barrel bandwagon and see what happens. Some I can smell the fishiness in the way they present themselves. Others the numbers don't, or can't add up.

All ot comes down to is doing some leg work and investigation.

Perhaps what I should be asking is: what do you look for in investigating a host? Like, I have no idea what it costs to run a VPS or dedi, or what power costs in a datacenter are, or if a host is leasing or using owned hardware, etc., so what are some examples of things you look for? Or a way you estimate if something is "bottom of the barrel"?

There's a lot of stuff involved here, because location/scale/owned vs leased (hardware, IP space, etc) and other business synergies matter. That being said, it's a pretty safe bet to assume a provider is paying around $50 per 1U of rackspace (1U, ~200W power, and some amount of bandwidth reserved for that server). It can be lower, it can be higher. Then you have your software licensing fees, additional business operating necessities, taxes, registrations, etc. Most of this industry is "solved". There are definitely some things that knowledgeable sysadmins/network admins can do to squeeze more and keep QoS higher, reliability much better, but we're all buying the same hardware from the same vendors.

I will tell you this: any time we put the $11.69/$22.69 stuff in stock, it's generally selling at a rate of 20+ new orders per minute until exhausted. In my opinion, the pricing we do on those units is absolute thinnest margins possible and we're only able to do it because of certain other products creating "dead rack space", some owned IP's or extremely affordable long-term leases, and size/scale of power and cage commits. Even then, if that was the only product we sold I'd hate life. They're generally around because they are fun, actually usable, and many of those have gone from someone testing the waters with a relatively new provider to much larger spends on custom hardware deployments. It also doesn't hurt to keep support staff sharp (and new ideas for docs to write-up) as it doesn't matter if it's $0.89/mo or $8900/mo a valid ticket is a valid ticket, it's just a lot easier to get more of the former

I honestly don't know how I would evaluate, but some things I'd probably look for if I were buying:

How long have they been in business?
Did they actually legally register / do their formation appropriately?
Do you rent or actually own and colocate any hardware?
General maturity level of conversation (I hate to do this, but does it seem like you're talking to 14 year olds on Discord? Unless their name is Calin, probably a big red flag)
A real business phone number you can reach them at, even for intro sales call. I used to think having desk phones everywhere and for every staff member was kind of a 'boomer-ish' relic, my opinion has completely 180'd on this. Yealinks for all.
Can they give you any pics of their operation? I understand they may not want to post unpolished random stuff to a website, but shooting over a pic of some hardware/current tasks/general rack work should be easy.
And just do they seem real/grounded to you? As a customer, it's probably a good sign to be told "No, we can't do that" occasionally. Then you know the host is either experienced or not just out to bilk you.

That list isn't exhaustive, but it's a good way to see how many pass/red-flag items you get.

@MikeA said:

@yoursunny said:

@MikeA said:
Anything under $20/y for a VPS (unless it's a container like OVZ) is really just not worth it. That's $1.70/m for a VPS. If the provider leases IPs that's under $1.20 for the hardware, bandwidth, taxes, transaction fees, and support. Better off to find a larger server like 4-8GB RAM for double the cost which is still super cheap.

I have these $20/year dealz, KVM & dedicated IPv4:

AdvinServers, Mumbai, 4GB, $6/year

VirMach, Miami, 1920MB, $8.88/year

Crunchbits, Liberty Lake, 3GB, $11.69/year

All these are beloved providers that have operated for many years.

No.. The two deals you have, both were very limited black friday or general giveaways for LET marketing. I'd guess only a handful of them were given out to people back in 2022-23 and that was it. Some people will give out a few unsustainable deals like that, like I said, all marketing and not publicly available. If either of those companies let anyone order those deals anytime they wouldn't be in business.

Aw c'mon. We just restocked about 100-odd yearlies over the last few days (replenishing abusers that got booted, idle space, etc) and generally do so every quarter to half year. But you're not wrong: it's mostly used as an introductory product. I don't believe in loss-leaders, but those yearlies are about as close as I'd ever feel comfortable getting.

P.S. Unless sunny got something special, it's only 1.5GB RAM for $11.69. Don't let him gaslight you for a better deal.

cold · June 27

@root said:
So many cautious people around here. I prefer to live the full adrenaline of not knowing what will happen next. If the offer is too good to be true and unsustainable, I will try to grab it.

Research? Ain't nobody got time for that! By the time research is complete that flash deal might be gone.

i do almost the same, but then i get pissed if they dont deliever what they promis

cold · June 27

@dev_vps said:
That is why Hetzner and Netcup can offer such low price premium VPS

$0.90 per month VPS from netcup is working great.

becase they still make profit ? they are not like some host from here who wanna become bilionairs by reselling

yoursunny · June 27

@crunchbits said:
P.S. Unless sunny got something special, it's only 1.5GB RAM for $11.69. Don't let him gaslight you for a better deal.

3GB $13.69 📉 3GB $11.69 💱 38.97 squats
We patiently wait for the right dealz, but take action before shrinkflation occurs.

root · June 27

@cold said:

@dev_vps said:
That is why Hetzner and Netcup can offer such low price premium VPS

$0.90 per month VPS from netcup is working great.

becase they still make profit ? they are not like some host from here who wanna become bilionairs by reselling

Did you just assume providers are losing billions?

cold · June 27

@root said:

@cold said:

@dev_vps said:
That is why Hetzner and Netcup can offer such low price premium VPS

$0.90 per month VPS from netcup is working great.

becase they still make profit ? they are not like some host from here who wanna become bilionairs by reselling

Did you just assume providers are losing billions?

aren't they ? based on the LES drama it must been some billions

How do I avoid scammy hosts?

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