What I learned from giving away free VPSes

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  • @Rahul said:

    Please count me in on that, game server's are fine ?

    free vps
    game server

    lol

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  • Not_OlesNot_Oles Hosting ProviderContent Writer

    @sonic @Rahul The free VPS folks mostly are idlers following their initial login and bench. But @david and I wanted some load on the server for testing purposes. So we ended up asking a friend to set up a VPS to run, I think it was, a Minecraft server. The little baby Xeon D-1521 processors don't bench at all impressively, but, in the real world, the D-1521s seem to get lots of work done. They seem especially good at compiling. For example, as against another processor, bench score increase of 100% gets 5% decrease in compile time. The game server didn't bother anybody.

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    I hope everyone gets the servers they want!

  • MaxKVMMaxKVM Hosting Provider

    @Not_Oles said:
    @sonic @Rahul The free VPS folks mostly are idlers following their initial login and bench. But @david and I wanted some load on the server for testing purposes. So we ended up asking a friend to set up a VPS to run, I think it was, a Minecraft server. The little baby Xeon D-1521 processors don't bench at all impressively, but, in the real world, the D-1521s seem to get lots of work done. They seem especially good at compiling. For example, as against another processor, bench score increase of 100% gets 5% decrease in compile time. The game server didn't bother anybody.

    May I ask - do those minecraft servers peg one CPU core to 100% usage with LXC containers? This is an annoying issue on our machines and qemu/KVM.

  • Not_OlesNot_Oles Hosting ProviderContent Writer

    Come to think of it, in New York City, the $10 I am asking for a month of LXC VPS Gold might get me a sandwich and a cup of coffee at some places. When I subtract the cost of the servers, it's less than $10 monthly profit per VPS. Maybe that qualifies as "almost free?" :) Of course, the economic situation isn't the same everywhere. If you guys or other readers really can't afford a VPS, you're invited to PM me with an offer of how much you can pay and the details of why you cannot afford $10. And maybe there will be free VPSes again before too long. Maybe to test an upgraded server.

    I hope everyone gets the servers they want!

  • Not_OlesNot_Oles Hosting ProviderContent Writer
    edited August 2020

    @MaxKVM said: May I ask - do those minecraft servers peg one CPU core to 100% usage with LXC containers? This is an annoying issue on our machines and qemu/KVM.

    Just to check the language, by "one CPU core" do you mean one dedicated core with two threads? Or do you mean one "vCore" = one thread?

    I have no experience with restricting the LXC VPSes to one thread. I don't think I've ever done that.

    Sorry but I don't remember how many cores we gave the VPS that was running Minecraft. I do remember that it bumped the load average a bit, maybe 0.25 or 0.5? The server was running most of the time around 1 plus or minus 0.5. It would hit 8 for a couple of minutes if somebody was running a bench.

    I'm far from an expert, but the kernel has sophisticated core sharing mechanisms. Why not use them? Why restrict each user to a tiny maximum percentage of the machine's resources (one vCore) when the whole machine is more or less idle almost all the time.

    What I do do is restrict each VPS to a maximum of half the processor resources. Maybe that should be three quarters. Just in case.

    I watch the load averages every day. If somebody is really a pig, I'll catch it.

    So far everybody says the machine runs okay. I'm glad!

    I hope everyone gets the servers they want!

  • MaxKVMMaxKVM Hosting Provider

    @Not_Oles said:

    @MaxKVM said: May I ask - do those minecraft servers peg one CPU core to 100% usage with LXC containers? This is an annoying issue on our machines and qemu/KVM.

    Just to check the language, by "one CPU core" do you mean one dedicated core with two threads? Or do you mean one "vCore" = one thread?

    I have no experience with restricting the LXC VPSes to one thread. I don't think I've ever done that.

    Sorry but I don't remember how many cores we gave the VPS that was running Minecraft. I do remember that it bumped the load average a bit, maybe 0.25 or 0.5? The server was running most of the time around 1 plus or minus 0.5. It would hit 8 for a couple of minutes if somebody was running a bench.

    I'm far from an expert, but the kernel has sophisticated core sharing mechanisms. Why not use them? Why restrict each user to a tiny maximum percentage of the machine's resources (one vCore) when the whole machine is more or less idle almost all the time.

    What I do do is restrict each VPS to a maximum of half the processor resources. Maybe that should be three quarters. Just in case.

    I watch the load averages every day. If somebody is really a pig, I'll catch it.

    So far everybody says the machine runs okay. I'm glad!

    I mean one vCore - and no matter how many they are allocated (most playing minecraft have 4-8) - there will always be one CPU vCores showing 100% usage on our end. This must be a bug that doesn't affect LXCs. Strange, but interesting. Thank you.

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  • It's always nice to see so dedicated people. Not only doing great tutorials, but also sharing that much with the community :blush:

    Thanked by (1)Not_Oles
  • @MaxKVM As far as I remember we didn't had any issues with the CPU. Which version of Minecraft you run? original, spigot, bukkit?

    SoftwareArchitect, Projectmanager, Founder, Innovator and passionate admin in my free time.

  • MaxKVMMaxKVM Hosting Provider

    @david said:
    @MaxKVM As far as I remember we didn't had any issues with the CPU. Which version of Minecraft you run? original, spigot, bukkit?

    Hi david,

    Most of our users are running Paper. This is a known bug to mojang, who closed it out without fixing it. Linode has some info here: https://www.linode.com/community/questions/18660/linode-graphs-show-100-cpu-usage-for-my-minecraft-v114-server-but-top-shows-low-

    Guest machines are seeing 10-20% CPU usage, while we see 100% CPU pegged for each machine running Minecraft. Apparently they aren't actually using 100% CPU - but our side sees that they are. At least we know which users are running Minecraft.

  • @MaxKVM said: I mean one vCore - and no matter how many they are allocated (most playing minecraft have 4-8) - there will always be one CPU vCores showing 100% usage on our end. This must be a bug that doesn't affect LXCs

    A case of Single threaded program instead of multi threaded maybe?

    @Not_Oles said: Come to think of it, in New York City, the $10 I am asking for a month of LXC VPS Gold might get me a sandwich and a cup of coffee at some places.

    From here where I live, you can get a cup of coffee at any where between $0.13 and $0.27.

    Sandwich though not very common here as it falls under the premium tab, but you can get one at $0.67. Also snack items are available at the above mentioned cost of a cup of coffee.

    So for just $1 you can satisfy your hunger.

    This is a common scenario in most Asian countries except ones like SG.

    As a byproduct, don't you notice that cheap yearly vps gets sold like hotcakes ?

    In 2014 or 2015, I thought of signing up for google voice since the rates were lower than offered by telecom providers even when considering the exchange rate. But the exchange rate went up a year later and continues even now to.

    Thanked by (3)Abdullah Not_Oles Ympker
  • Not_OlesNot_Oles Hosting ProviderContent Writer

    @Rahul said: From here where I live, you can get a cup of coffee at any where between $0.13 and $0.27.

    Sandwich though not very common here as it falls under the premium tab, but you can get one at $0.67. Also snack items are available at the above mentioned cost of a cup of coffee.

    So for just $1 you can satisfy your hunger.

    Hi @Rahul! Thanks for gently helping me better understand how things are where you live. Maybe I will be lucky enough to visit someday before too long. That would be great!

    If somebody wants one of my servers but cannot afford the price, they are very welcome to let me know via PM, and I will see what I can do.

    Thanks again for everything you told me! Best wishes from Mexico!

    I hope everyone gets the servers they want!

  • RahulRahul OG
    edited August 2020

    @sonic said: free vps
    game server

    lol

    Does @sonic not game ?

    @Not_Oles said: If somebody wants one of my servers but cannot afford the price, they are very welcome to let me know via PM, and I will see what I can do.

    Is the number of IPv4 available the first bottleneck when it comes to deploying VPS according to you ?

    Why not use the LE way of offering IPv4 NAT VPS so as to keep the prices low since, IPv6 is a far cry even now in most places.

  • Not_OlesNot_Oles Hosting ProviderContent Writer

    @Rahul said: Is the number of IPv4 available the first bottleneck when it comes to deploying VPS according to you ?

    Hi Rahul!

    The OVH/SoYouStart nodes I am using each come with 16 extra IPv4s for VPSes. They cost $29.95 per month. The srvr.ovh plans are $5 per month (Silver) and $10 per month (Gold).

    I have had at most maybe 10 or 12 IPv4s in use on any one node so far, and that was when I was giving away the VPSes for free. So maybe there are enough IPv4s for servers that are not overloaded?

    Not fancy benchmarks, but, in real world use, the modest Xeon D-1521 CPUs seem fine: so far nobody has complained about performance.

    Why not use the LE way of offering IPv4 NAT VPS so as to keep the prices low since, IPv6 is a far cry even now in most places.

    Could do this I suppose. The servers come with only one IPv6 /64 which I haven't been using much at all. How many IPv6 NAT users should there be per node? How much should the plans cost? How would I handle tickets for a large group of users? Seriously, I'm very new at this. I don't know the answers to all these questions. So I am going slowly, and I will learn more as time passes and as you and the other guys here continue to teach me.

    Thanks for your comments! Best from Mexico!

    I hope everyone gets the servers they want!

  • RahulRahul OG
    edited August 2020

    @Not_Oles said: The servers come with only one IPv6 /64 which I haven't been using much at all.

    That's a whooping 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 IPv6 addresses.

    So instead of

    @Not_Oles said: How many IPv6 NAT users should there be per node?

    It should be

    @Not_Oles said: How many IPv4 NAT users should there be per node?

    @mikho is a big player in this field of NAT VPS. Could you give him an idea on balancing it ? Also our new entrant @Abdullah

    As you can see the plans at https://clients.mrvm.net/cart.php

    Something like this

    Shared IPv4 with 20 Forwarded Ports + 1 SSH Port, /112 IPv6 Subnet, Control Panel including Reverse Proxy management managed from the regular Client Area.

    The above mentioned IPv6 Subnet mostly comes to life from that /64 and with that sweet Reverse Proxy( ha proxy ?) option you can host a website just like on port 80, magically.

    Note that any Swap is not provided at all so as to not degrade disk io performance since, the disk itself will be the first bottleneck ( if I recall correctly )

    @Not_Oles said: How would I handle tickets for a large group of users?

    Your Billing panel is ? WHMCS?

    If you are going this path take a look at https://www.kimsufi.com/us/en/servers.xml in the place of

    @Not_Oles said: SoYouStart

    So that you can bring the cost even lower.

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  • mikhomikho AdministratorOG

    @Rahul thanks for the mention.
    Not giving away my secret but I’ll give you a few tips.

    1. Disk activity is the bottleneck.
    2. RAM usage is less on OVZ7 nodes then on OVZ6 nodes. (Overallocate)
    3. Monitor load average on the containers. Restart containers with a load over 1 (assuming 1 assigned vCPU) over a certain time.
    4. CPU type is not that important to the customers.
    5. Limit which services/applications supported/allowed. I don’t allow irc over ipv4. Or outgoing mailservers on port 25 (ipv4 that is).

    As ipv6 is unique for the customer, its easier to find an abuser in those cases.

    @AnthonySmith once told me an estimated amount of users per 8gb ram.
    He runs on better servers then I do (which is why my bottleneck is the disk i/o).

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    “Technology is best when it brings people together.” – Matt Mullenweg

  • InceptionHostingInceptionHosting Hosting ProviderOG

    @mikho said: @AnthonySmith once told me an estimated amount of users per 8gb ram.

    He runs on better servers then I do (which is why my bottleneck is the disk i/o).

    That was for LES back in the day, these days I would say that is more like (roughly) 128 users per 8GB Ram.

    I would also agree with your points 1 - 5 but add that this is for the majority of use cases and users, there will always be some that this does not apply too it really depends how you target things.

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    https://inceptionhosting.com
    Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.

  • Not_OlesNot_Oles Hosting ProviderContent Writer

    @Rahul said:

    @Not_Oles said: The servers come with only one IPv6 /64 which I haven't been using much at all.

    That's a whooping 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 IPv6 addresses.

    So instead of

    @Not_Oles said: How many IPv6 NAT users should there be per node?

    It should be

    @Not_Oles said: How many IPv4 NAT users should there be per node?

    @mikho is a big player in this field of NAT VPS. Could you give him an idea on balancing it ? Also our new entrant @Abdullah

    As you can see the plans at https://clients.mrvm.net/cart.php

    Something like this

    Shared IPv4 with 20 Forwarded Ports + 1 SSH Port, /112 IPv6 Subnet, Control Panel including Reverse Proxy management managed from the regular Client Area.

    The above mentioned IPv6 Subnet mostly comes to life from that /64 and with that sweet Reverse Proxy( ha proxy ?) option you can host a website just like on port 80, magically.

    Note that any Swap is not provided at all so as to not degrade disk io performance since, the disk itself will be the first bottleneck ( if I recall correctly )

    @Not_Oles said: How would I handle tickets for a large group of users?

    Your Billing panel is ? WHMCS?

    If you are going this path take a look at https://www.kimsufi.com/us/en/servers.xml in the place of

    @Not_Oles said: SoYouStart

    So that you can bring the cost even lower.

    Hi again Rahul!

    Thanks for your detailed comment. I really appreciate that you are so thorough and polite, yet still relaxed and calm.

    I took a look at @mikho's plans at https://clients.mrvm.net/cart.php

    @Abdullah and I are good friends.

    Like all of us I'm a big @AnthonySmith fan.

    I've used Kimsufi servers for years. I switched to SoYouStart late last year because they offered a promotion where the SYS servers were the same price as the Kimsufis, but the SYS Xeon D-1521 servers had 2.5x the Kimsufi bandwidth and also compiled GNU binutils one third faster than the most expensive Kimsufi with Xeon W3520.

    I have set up and run IPv6, but I've always had what seemed enough IPv4s.

    I'm not using a billing panel. Many of the hosting industry standard control panels and billing panels are not my preferred open source and copyleft.

    I have been using Proxmox to make the LXC VPSes. Just recently @Mason and @seriesn suggested that I could allow users to access the Proxmox web GUI. That seems to work, and it looks like my LXC users soon will be able to access the web GUI, where they can stop, start, reboot, backup, and reinstall their VPS. Also, the users can access and monitor the bare metal server node load averages and see the bare metal performance graphs. I'm still looking at a possible security issue that @Unixfy found. Otherwise the Proxmox GUI will be arriving soon for the users who have signed up.

    Haha, although I've used qemu-kvm from the command line many times, I finally tried making a KVM VPS with Proxmox! It was for @Unixfy to test. Using Proxmox and the official Ubuntu 20.04 ISO, the networking didn't work inside the KVM. I'm sure that that the KVM-Ubuntu-OVH-failover-IP networking could be pretty easily fixed (OVH has some guides), but i want to focus more on LXC. Another approach to getting KVM which would be totally crazy but really fun would be to try running the KVM inside LXC!

    In other news, with the help of @quangthang, the srvr.ovh website may be being modernized: dark theme, a bit of motion, more pages, a blog, etc. There's a pre-pre-preview at https://srvr.surge.sh. @quangthang and I were talking about using Vercel, but in order to sign up, Vercel seems to require a Github, Gitlab, or Bitbucket account while I have Sourcehut. Well, we'll see what happens.

    I'm trying to learn enough about Node.js to write a blog post about it. We'll see what happens. :)

    My friend @tom recently helped me try out a fancy 256 GB RAM server at Hetzner. Thanks to @Hetzner_OL for making an account for @tom. @tom likes Hetzner and might try an even fancier server there. @tom also is considering HiVelocity thanks to good words about HiVelocity heard from @MaxKVM.

    It seems, @Rahul, that you really want me to go the NAT route. But, happily, people can buy NAT from @mikho and @AnthonySmith. @Abdullah too. Maybe also others. Where I think I might be going is trying to distinguish myself from other VPS providers by (1) using fast-as-metal LXC instead of KVM; (2) allowing users to monitor bare metal host node performance; and (3) using mostly open source copyleft software.

    What I am trying to do, @Rahul, is to give you all this explanation as a way of showing appreciation for your kind suggestion that I try the NAT route. If you want to work with me on anything, or if you need anything from me, please feel free to send me a PM.

    If anybody really can't afford the prices listed at https://srvr.ovh and really needs a VPS, they are invited to get in touch via PM or the email on my profile with information about their situation.

    Shameless plug: Meanwhile, the RAID 1 rust is slowly spinning, the dear little Xeon D-1521s are chugging away, and the DDR4 ECC RAM and the 1 Gbps network are zipping along over at https://srvr.ovh. Everybody who has tried them seems to think the srvr.ovh LXC VPSes work okay. I try to do a great job at support. Please go click the Paypal subscribe link. :)

    Greetings from the Sonoran Desert!

    Thanked by (2)Unixfy Abdullah

    I hope everyone gets the servers they want!

  • Not_OlesNot_Oles Hosting ProviderContent Writer

    @AnthonySmith said: these days I would say that is more like (roughly) 128 users per 8GB Ram

    My babies have 32 GB RAM.

    So, 4 x 128 = 512 users for 4 x 8 = 32 GB RAM.

    I am thinking 10 or 12 users, not more than 16 users per 32 GB RAM.

    Methinks I might need to rethink!? :)

    I hope everyone gets the servers they want!

  • UnixfyUnixfy OG
    edited August 2020

    @Not_Oles said: In other news, with the help of @quangthang, the srvr.ovh website may be being modernized: dark theme, a bit of motion, more pages, a blog, etc. There's a pre-pre-preview at https://srvr.surge.sh. @quangthang and I were talking about using Vercel, but in order to sign up, Vercel seems to require a Github, Gitlab, or Bitbucket account while I have Sourcehut. Well, we'll see what happens.

    Wow! I am really impressed by that website. It looks great!

    You could consider having a toggle for dark mode using darkmodejs, which I use on my personal site. It works very well! (apart from the Javascript I wrote that changes the logo upon toggle - that seems a bit broken)

    As for hosting, I am a big fan of Netlify for static sites. I host all of my Jamstack sites on there. Yes, they are a VC funded company, but they have an outstanding track record of supporting open source. You should definitely give them a try.

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  • AbdullahAbdullah Hosting ProviderOG

    hey, what's up here =)
    @Not_Oles
    Tell me if anything is needed, will help as much I can.
    btw. the new DARK theme site looks NICE. makes me jealous ;)

    Best Regards.

    Thanked by (1)Not_Oles
  • Now we need someone giving free vps for vpn ?. For the ones whose internet is censored....
    I am quite happy with gullos nat vps. But to my surprise I never crossed 10gb /month in @gullo 's for the last two months . While we are talking because there are so many ipv6s do websites actually consider your subnet for rate limiting you from doing stuff like scraping etc! I mean I have never seen someone doing it? What am I missing

    Also forgive my 5 year old ignorant brain if i missed something obvious

    Want free vps ? https://microlxc.net

  • RahulRahul OG
    edited August 2020

    @Not_Oles said: It seems, @Rahul, that you really want me to go the NAT route.

    Yes but not anymore, since I found out that.

    @Not_Oles said: I'm not using a billing panel.

    So, the below will be a major challenge from preventing a "all hell breaks loose" situation.

    @Not_Oles said: How would I handle tickets for a large group of users?

    So please stick to your original path

    @Not_Oles said: Where I think I might be going is trying to distinguish myself from other VPS providers by (1) using fast-as-metal LXC instead of KVM; (2) allowing users to monitor bare metal host node performance; and (3) using mostly open source copyleft software.

    And Good Luck.

    Thanked by (1)Not_Oles
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