Up votes and Down votes - Poll to see what you want to see and be seen.

AnthonySmith

Please, of all the posts you interact with, take this one seriously and consider your answer

Do you want to see who has downvoted you and who has upvoted you?

Or

Do you want downvotes to remain hidden?

To be clear, this is all or nothing; it includes historic votes as well, not just new ones.

This impacts:

• All Posts
• New member applications
• Hosting provider applications

I understand why this has come up a few times; transparency is important.

The flip side is, and the reason they were hidden to begin with, if you don't like something, you should feel free to express that without being singled out.

While I dont like the idea that the odd strange person can just downvote shit to get a kick out of it, the individual was never the point of this.

The point was so the collective community could self-moderate a lot of things like who gets banned, who gets a tag, who is just not fitting in well, which posts should be sunk and which ones are more visible.

It was supposed to be a collective power; I worry that revealing on a post who downvoted could be a barrier to some taking any action and make things generally more combative, but I also understand why people want to be able to see this.

I will go with the majority because, really, my own opinion is probably the least important here. I am steering the ship, but I did not pick your chosen destination.

If we do go for a full reveal, there will be rules to go with it; any arguments this causes with tit-for-tat stupid up/down vote wars will be squashed quickly and will come under the mod/admin time vacuum rules.

I think because the implications of this are pretty significant, I would like to say that the winning answer needs at least 50 votes to pass and must be at least 60% of the total votes; there is no throwaway I don't care vote here, and there will be no modifications after.

skorous

This is rough because you're right and I can see both sides ....

AnthonySmith

@skorous said:
This is rough because you're right and I can see both sides ....

Yep, it's because there is no wrong answer, it just depends what direction you want.

jaden

The voting is off to a slow start. If neither reaches the required 50 votes, I assume downvoters will continue to be hidden?

MannDude

I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Whats from stopping someone from creating five new accounts and always upvoting, "MyHostingCo is awesome!" and downvoting "YourHostingCo is awesome!" in a coordinated effort? Admins/mods could see it's always the same few accounts doing this and take appropriate actions for those who lack any sort of business ethics or civil sense.

lapua

mentally strong people can handle both praise and criticism. that’s why (also for transparency reasons) we should see both and not bow to the sick, “woke” zeitgeist. if you don’t see downvotes, then you shouldn’t see upvotes either.

xaoc

I was just thinking that it would be nice to see downvotes as well. But if you keep them hidden, might has well hide the upvotes.

poei

WSS

@MannDude said:
I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Whats from stopping someone from creating five new accounts and always upvoting, "MyHostingCo is awesome!" and downvoting "YourHostingCo is awesome!" in a coordinated effort? Admins/mods could see it's always the same few accounts doing this and take appropriate actions for those who lack any sort of business ethics or civil sense.

You do realize that this 100% exists for admins, because otherwise it'd be difficult to manage. You might as well be asking for water to be wet.

Not_Oles

The question:

Do you want to see who has downvoted you and who has upvoted you?

Or

Do you want downvotes to remain hidden?

Each side has a big advantage:

• Reveal: transparency is important

• Continue to conceal: freely express negative opinion without being singled out

My vote:

• Continue as is, i.e., continue to conceal.

Reasons:

1. Changing to reveal negative votes might destroy Members' previous expectation of voter privacy:

@AnthonySmith said: To be clear, this is all or nothing; it includes historic votes as well, not just new ones.

2. Changing to reveal negative votes would increase complexity because of new rules. New rules potentially introduce new, as yet not understood areas of ambiguity and confusion:

@AnthonySmith said: If we do go for a full reveal, there will be rules to go with it;

WSS

@Not_Oles said: Changing to reveal negative votes might destroy Members' previous expectation of voter privacy:

We've had downvotes for a couple of weeks. It's not like it's going to expose the Kennedy assination.

@Not_Oles said: Changing to reveal negative votes would increase complexity because of new rules. New rules potentially introduce new, as yet not understood areas of ambiguity and confusion:

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

AnthonySmith

@WSS said:

@MannDude said:
I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Whats from stopping someone from creating five new accounts and always upvoting, "MyHostingCo is awesome!" and downvoting "YourHostingCo is awesome!" in a coordinated effort? Admins/mods could see it's always the same few accounts doing this and take appropriate actions for those who lack any sort of business ethics or civil sense.

You do realize that this 100% exists for admins, because otherwise it'd be difficult to manage. You might as well be asking for water to be wet.

Just as an example: (I un-downvoted you haha)

WSS

@AnthonySmith said: I un-downvoted you

X

MannDude

@AnthonySmith said:

@WSS said:

@MannDude said:
I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Whats from stopping someone from creating five new accounts and always upvoting, "MyHostingCo is awesome!" and downvoting "YourHostingCo is awesome!" in a coordinated effort? Admins/mods could see it's always the same few accounts doing this and take appropriate actions for those who lack any sort of business ethics or civil sense.

You do realize that this 100% exists for admins, because otherwise it'd be difficult to manage. You might as well be asking for water to be wet.

Just as an example: (I un-downvoted you haha)

Good to know.

And no, I did not realize it was already available, hence the suggestion. I have no idea how Vanilla or VanillaVibe+ works. 😂

In that case, I don't care. I think you should show all up and down votes or not show either, after some consideration.

msatt

@WSS said: Thank you, Captain Obvious.

That is the exact reason why there should be downvotes without recrimination / visibility.
You can call it 'woke' or whatever but being polite is something I value so I would downvote those sorts or comments (btw I did not). However if there was visibility (of downvotes) then I could understand that there could be a backlash and drama.
So my overall feeling is don't show up/down votes.

WSS

@msatt said: That is the exact reason why there should be downvotes without recrimination / visibility.

Haven't you spent your entire career here shitting all over Virmach? Asking for a friend.

msatt

@WSS said: Haven't you spent your entire career here shitting all over Virmach? Asking for a friend.

No - I also compliment where it is due - I genuinely try to be fair unlike your regular trash / dick comments which I find irritating.
However again your comment highlights why @AnthonySmith is doing the right thing by introducing +/- Karma. This discussion is about what should be shown. My feeling is people should comment / discuss. Things can get justifiably heated and the community can use karma to give their feelings. However karma should not create more 'drama' it should just be a thermometer.

WSS

@msatt said: No - I also compliment where it is due - I genuinely try to be fair unlike your regular trash / dick comments which I find irritating.

You're deflecting. Answer my question directly as I asked you. You're a hypocrite. You're allowed to not like me, that's perfectly fine.

AnthonySmith

I see my concerns about it generally making this place a more combative environment were totally unfounded

WSS

@AnthonySmith said:
I see my concerns about it generally making this place a more combative environment were totally unfounded

He's been in my craw since about 2023. I just decided it was time to call him out when he's waxing on about PLUR but goes out of his way to shit on Soheil every chance he gets.

bikegremlin

On a Serbian forum I moderated, visible up and downvotes did cause drama - because it was that kind of crowd there (especially the regulars). Any option or excuse for drama you could say.

Likewise, I've seen forums where visible up and down votes were never a problem.

Having said that, if downvotes are publicly counted (as negative post rating or similar), they should not be anonymous. If they should be anonymous, then it should be only a positive votes option (in live communication I tend to make praises public and criticism private... unless I'm dealing with a vegan...).

msatt

@WSS said: You're deflecting. Answer my question directly as I asked you. You're a hypocrite. You're allowed to not like me, that's perfectly fine.

I have no idea what you are talking about - I suspect you are confusing me with someone else and I can assure you I do not bear grudges.
However, no deflection (I am not clever or can be bothered with that crap).
I did answer your question -

No - I also compliment where it is due

and YES I have complimented virmach.

So yes Anthony - I think @wss is showing all of my points and I am struggling to reframe my comments.
However lets see how many more karma points he can use against me.

mikho

@bikegremlin said: On a Serbian forum I moderated, visible up and downvotes did cause drama - because it was that kind of crowd there (especially the regulars). Any option or excuse for drama you could say.

Like a true Balkan, everything can (and often will) end up with a fight.

@bikegremlin said: (in live communication I tend to make praises public and criticism private... unless I'm dealing with a vegan...).

Hate against vegans.... the Balkan style

WSS

@msatt said: However lets see how many more karma points he can use against me.

Buddy. I haven't downvoted you at all (recently - not sure about history). I just consider you a slight annoyance. Truce? You can hate me, and I don't care about your FOSS shit, because I don't personally trust you. We can move on.

bikegremlin

@mikho said:

@bikegremlin said: On a Serbian forum I moderated, visible up and downvotes did cause drama - because it was that kind of crowd there (especially the regulars). Any option or excuse for drama you could say.

Like a true Balkan, everything can (and often will) end up with a fight.

@bikegremlin said: (in live communication I tend to make praises public and criticism private... unless I'm dealing with a vegan...).

Hate against vegans.... the Balkan style

It's all 'cause we care about the environment!

mikho

@bikegremlin said:

@mikho said:

@bikegremlin said: On a Serbian forum I moderated, visible up and downvotes did cause drama - because it was that kind of crowd there (especially the regulars). Any option or excuse for drama you could say.

Like a true Balkan, everything can (and often will) end up with a fight.

@bikegremlin said: (in live communication I tend to make praises public and criticism private... unless I'm dealing with a vegan...).

Hate against vegans.... the Balkan style

It's all 'cause we care about the environment!

Welll ... that video is Danish.... but I get your point

AnthonySmith

More people have voted on this now than on the $7 removal proposal haha. idk what that means, but it makes me laugh a bit.

AnthonySmith

Bumping this for visibility.

treesmokah

@MannDude said: I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Why would it be hidden to end-users? I feel like the knowledge of who disliked your post is useful, you can tell based on the account whether someone is a whiny bitch or a genuine user that didn't like that particular comment. You had people following you around on OGF and artificially trying to shift the public opinion on you, here they can tank your posts anonymously and you have no idea whether its a legitimate person or just another do-nothing loser salty about things you permit people to host.

I don't like to point fingers but there are users that contribute nothing and just go around finding stuff to be offended about. Dislikes are ammunition for them, and being able to spot who is who would be beneficial.

AnthonySmith

@treesmokah said:

@MannDude said: I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Why would it be hidden to end-users? I feel like the knowledge of who disliked your post is useful, you can tell based on the account whether someone is a whiny bitch or a genuine user that didn't like that particular comment. You had people following you around on OGF and artificially trying to shift the public opinion on you, here they can tank your posts anonymously and you have no idea whether its a legitimate person or just another do-nothing loser salty about things you permit people to host.

I don't like to point fingers but there are users that contribute nothing and just go around finding stuff to be offended about. Dislikes are ammunition for them, and being able to spot who is who would be beneficial.

I dont know if you got that far, but he totally changed his mind on it.

treesmokah

@AnthonySmith said:

@treesmokah said:

@MannDude said: I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Why would it be hidden to end-users? I feel like the knowledge of who disliked your post is useful, you can tell based on the account whether someone is a whiny bitch or a genuine user that didn't like that particular comment. You had people following you around on OGF and artificially trying to shift the public opinion on you, here they can tank your posts anonymously and you have no idea whether its a legitimate person or just another do-nothing loser salty about things you permit people to host.

I don't like to point fingers but there are users that contribute nothing and just go around finding stuff to be offended about. Dislikes are ammunition for them, and being able to spot who is who would be beneficial.

I dont know if you got that far, but he totally changed his mind on it.

I see it now... Good for him

lapua

@AnthonySmith final descision?

AnthonySmith

@lapua said:
@AnthonySmith final descision?

No rush I guess, thanks for bumping it, I guess leaving it for the month is probably about as overkill as possible to give everyone a chance.

That's what I think anyway.

If anyone changed their mind since voting you can pm me and I will manually change your vote in the database.

So maybe let's see it again on the 30th September.

Edit: phone typing

mikho

49 votes as I read now.

Lets get a couple more so we can reach a decision

forest

Displaying downvotes would cause a chilling effect where people who disagree with an opinion will not downvote because they don't want conflict. Displaying downvotes would also cause people to misinterpret the reason and take it personally. I'm certain it'd result in revenge-downvoting as well, since downvotes are "free".

I personally know that I'd downvote less if it was visible because I'm (with a few exceptions) generally conflict-avoidant. I'd also be more willing to downvote people who are already downvoted due to diffusion of responsibility. That could easily create a situation where no one wants to be the first to downvote, except with particularly egregious comments where the downvoter doesn't care what the downvotee thinks of them.

On Stack Exchange / Stack Overflow, casting a downvote costs one point in reputation (similar to karma), but receiving an upvote grants 10 reputation points. This acts as a disincentive to overuse downvoting, which helps reduce community conflict. Both downvotes and upvotes are anonymous there.

Why not allow users to opt-in to displaying a downvote (or opt-out of displaying an upvote)? That would allow people to decide for themselves if they want the vote to be counted, and could also allow people to feel more free about upvoting posts that they agree with but would otherwise not upvote because the posts are unpopular. In such a case, they could choose to have their upvote hidden as well.

ialexpw

@forest said: Displaying downvotes would cause a chilling effect where people who disagree with an opinion will not downvote because they don't want conflict. Displaying downvotes would also cause people to misinterpret the reason and take it personally. I'm certain it'd result in revenge-downvoting as well, since downvotes are "free".

Agree with this. It will just cause drama, either within the thread or I'd imagine some would even take it to PM. There's no real reason to show it and I'm not sure of any other places that do it.

lapua

@ialexpw said:

@forest said: Displaying downvotes would cause a chilling effect where people who disagree with an opinion will not downvote because they don't want conflict. Displaying downvotes would also cause people to misinterpret the reason and take it personally. I'm certain it'd result in revenge-downvoting as well, since downvotes are "free".

Agree with this. It will just cause drama, either within the thread or I'd imagine some would even take it to PM. There's no real reason to show it and I'm not sure of any other places that do it.

i have to repeat myself just this once. mentally strong people can handle downvotes, too. @yoursunny

treesmokah

@forest said: Displaying downvotes would cause a chilling effect where people who disagree with an opinion will not downvote because they don't want conflict.

If you aren't willing to stand by your opinion, it isn't worth anything.

@ialexpw said:

@forest said: Displaying downvotes would cause a chilling effect where people who disagree with an opinion will not downvote because they don't want conflict. Displaying downvotes would also cause people to misinterpret the reason and take it personally. I'm certain it'd result in revenge-downvoting as well, since downvotes are "free".

Agree with this. It will just cause drama, either within the thread or I'd imagine some would even take it to PM. There's no real reason to show it and I'm not sure of any other places that do it.

Just close your eyes or close the tab If you can't handle people having a different opinion than you. Its really that simple

Anonymous dislikes only promote division, instead of people sharing different views and having a real discussion.
Every online nerd community has been plagued and eventually destroyed by such types of people. Any perceived disagreement will result in downvotes which in this case, will get your account nuked. Eventually only the constantly offended people will be left, and go after eachother (look at Reddit).

AnthonySmith

@lapua said:

@ialexpw said:

@forest said: Displaying downvotes would cause a chilling effect where people who disagree with an opinion will not downvote because they don't want conflict. Displaying downvotes would also cause people to misinterpret the reason and take it personally. I'm certain it'd result in revenge-downvoting as well, since downvotes are "free".

Agree with this. It will just cause drama, either within the thread or I'd imagine some would even take it to PM. There's no real reason to show it and I'm not sure of any other places that do it.

i have to repeat myself just this once. mentally strong people can handle downvotes, too. @yoursunny

I agree with that statement in isolation.

(rest not aimed at anyone in particular)

I would also say that mentally strong people don't need to know; they can just accept that someone did not like it and move on. On balance, the likelihood of revealing who downvoted a post will have more impact in terms of lack of engagement and a skewed reality of the consensus.

To expand on that a bit further, because, to be honest, if I were a regular member here, I don't even know if I would bother voting on it, probably leaning more towards reveal but not too bothered either way; I just see it as a collective temperature gauge, nothing more, but I don't believe many are going to see it the same way, and I believe that revealing will make this place more combative and petty generally, and for me, I don't want that because then I have to get involved, and I have enough to deal with.

Anything that risks giving this place the same undertone as LET is not a good thing in my book. There is a big difference between being mentally strong and lacking class or having no filter, requiring aggressive, shouty hurty words to get your point across.

I don't know; I did not intend to write this much; it's a bit reflective. I have done what I can to try and give everyone a say on as many things as possible here, but I have found myself wondering a few times recently: am I just too old and past caring now to be steering this ship (foreshadowing?) I will respect and accept the final decision either way, I hope everyone else can too.

edit: I should probably have said, I am not against the idea of suck it and see, doing a month of reveal and see what happens; nothing needs to be final.

ialexpw

@treesmokah said: Just close your eyes or close the tab If you can't handle people having a different opinion than you. Its really that simple

This doesn't really have anything to do with whether you can see downvotes or not though. I'm fine with downvotes as a feature, there's no "positive" reason to show who is downvoting you though - what positive outcome could come from showing them?

@treesmokah said: Anonymous dislikes only promote division, instead of people sharing different views and having a real discussion.

I just do not see how this will add to any discussion in a positive way - it will cause people to just call others out and cause drama.

@AnthonySmith said: I would also say that mentally strong people don't need to know; they can just accept that someone did not like it and move on.

Agree with this.

treesmokah

@ialexpw said: This doesn't really have anything to do with whether you can see downvotes or not though. I'm fine with downvotes as a feature, there's no "positive" reason to show who is downvoting you though - what positive outcome could come from showing them?

What positive outcomes do downvotes provide?
I get them being used for vetting in new members thread, but how is it positive for someone to downvote something because they don't agree with it?

Not that I really care about them to being with, but I find this logic flawed. I think resorting to downvotes for something a person doesn't like, instead of presenting their opinion, will lead us nowhere.

What about "diversity"? If you downvote everyone you don't agree with, and they get banned, you will be in a bubble. There are posts I don't agree with on this site, but I haven't used a downvote once for that - instead I replied and was met with downvotes, rather than people calling me names or presenting their opinions, which I would prefer. God forbid people make posts.... on a forum.

@ialexpw said: I just do not see how this will add to any discussion in a positive way - it will cause people to just call others out and cause drama.

There is only one way to find out
Personally, I do not think it will result in any drama or callouts. It will be exactly as it is right now.

The very same thing could be said about upvotes being public, someone may get upset with another person liking something. Yet there was no drama.

lapua

@AnthonySmith said: edit: I should probably have said, I am not against the idea of suck it and see, doing a month of reveal and see what happens; nothing needs to be final.

a welcome compromise. and we'll see who is mentally weak and will abuse it.

lapua

@ialexpw said: This doesn't really have anything to do with whether you can see downvotes or not though. I'm fine with downvotes as a feature, there's no "positive" reason to show who is downvoting you though - what positive outcome could come from showing them?

if you follow this logic, then there's no reason to be able to see who gave you a positive vote.

ahnlak

@lapua said:

@ialexpw said: This doesn't really have anything to do with whether you can see downvotes or not though. I'm fine with downvotes as a feature, there's no "positive" reason to show who is downvoting you though - what positive outcome could come from showing them?

if you follow this logic, then there's no reason to be able to see who gave you a positive vote.

True to an extent, but you're probably going to get less drama aimed at you for upvoting someone than downvoting them.

zed

post and poll are about showing up & down, vote options are only about down votes, got confused didn't vote.

i don't really understand the purpose of displaying either, transparency isn't relevant in this instance.
so i guess i would vote to show neither, if there was such an option.

AnthonySmith

@zed said:
post and poll are about showing up & down, vote options are only about down votes, got confused didn't vote.

i don't really understand the purpose of displaying either, transparency isn't relevant in this instance.
so i guess i would vote to show neither, if there was such an option.

Not a terrible idea, just kinda felt wrong to remove the entire "thanks" history given it has always existed and that's all an upvote is, a thanks.

More generally, I think it's also important to remember that this was always intended as a temperature gauge overall; individual up/down votes are not really the point. It was a collective tool, so maybe hiding both is a possible sensible direction.

I get a little sense of happiness, not sure how to describe it, when I upvote, almost like the world's smallest high 5, so I don't know if I would like to remove that, but I also fully understand the hypocrisy of what I am saying; being human is complex sometimes.

ialexpw

@lapua said:

@ialexpw said: This doesn't really have anything to do with whether you can see downvotes or not though. I'm fine with downvotes as a feature, there's no "positive" reason to show who is downvoting you though - what positive outcome could come from showing them?

if you follow this logic, then there's no reason to be able to see who gave you a positive vote.

This isn't true, one is a positive outcome and the other is a negative. So my comment makes sense for keeping it as-is now.

Overall though, I still think I prefer the previous "Thanks" type vote rather than the up/down vote, but if I'm just choosing based on this thread, I'd prefer as-is.

mikho

Renaming Thanks to "Karma Points" and only show the number, positive or negative...

If a post gets 3 positive and 2 negative, "Karma points" get the value of +1 (shown to users)
No names on who up-/downvoted

msatt

Logic seems a bit wrong e.g. a message says Thanked by (1) AnthonySmith and yet the up down is for Karma. So either it is thanks or it is Karma.
Having 'thanks/karma' shown does have the benefit of letting the poster know that there are like minded members. So either way good or bad, it could create cliques.
So my vote is changing and I am tending more towards just having a karma value without the transparency.

AnthonySmith

@msatt said:
Logic seems a bit wrong e.g. a message says Thanked by (1) AnthonySmith and yet the up down is for Karma. So either it is thanks or it is Karma.
Having 'thanks/karma' shown does have the benefit of letting the poster know that there are like minded members. So either way good or bad, it could create cliques.
So my vote is changing and I am tending more towards just having a karma value without the transparency.

yeah I was on the fence about keeping the classic "thanks" visible or change it to "upvoted by" idk.

lapua

@ahnlak said:

@lapua said:

@ialexpw said: This doesn't really have anything to do with whether you can see downvotes or not though. I'm fine with downvotes as a feature, there's no "positive" reason to show who is downvoting you though - what positive outcome could come from showing them?

if you follow this logic, then there's no reason to be able to see who gave you a positive vote.

True to an extent, but you're probably going to get less drama aimed at you for upvoting someone than downvoting them.

&

@ialexpw said: This isn't true, one is a positive outcome and the other is a negative. So my comment makes sense for keeping it as-is now.

Overall though, I still think I prefer the previous "Thanks" type vote rather than the up/down vote, but if I'm just choosing based on this thread, I'd prefer as-is.

we are actually struggling with this very issue right now. there is a view (perhaps due to the current “woke” climate) that everything should be positive and must be expressed that way, etc., and that negative feedback is frowned upon because it could trigger “drama.” however, i don’t share this view and stand by my belief that mentally strong, stable people can handle both praise and criticism. and if they cant, then they should learn to do so very quickly, in their own best interest. in real life, this (new) character development will certainly be helpful as well.