Up votes and Down votes - Poll to see what you want to see and be seen.

AnthonySmith

Please, of all the posts you interact with, take this one seriously and consider your answer

Do you want to see who has downvoted you and who has upvoted you?

Or

Do you want downvotes to remain hidden?

To be clear, this is all or nothing; it includes historic votes as well, not just new ones.

This impacts:

• All Posts
• New member applications
• Hosting provider applications

I understand why this has come up a few times; transparency is important.

The flip side is, and the reason they were hidden to begin with, if you don't like something, you should feel free to express that without being singled out.

While I dont like the idea that the odd strange person can just downvote shit to get a kick out of it, the individual was never the point of this.

The point was so the collective community could self-moderate a lot of things like who gets banned, who gets a tag, who is just not fitting in well, which posts should be sunk and which ones are more visible.

It was supposed to be a collective power; I worry that revealing on a post who downvoted could be a barrier to some taking any action and make things generally more combative, but I also understand why people want to be able to see this.

I will go with the majority because, really, my own opinion is probably the least important here. I am steering the ship, but I did not pick your chosen destination.

If we do go for a full reveal, there will be rules to go with it; any arguments this causes with tit-for-tat stupid up/down vote wars will be squashed quickly and will come under the mod/admin time vacuum rules.

I think because the implications of this are pretty significant, I would like to say that the winning answer needs at least 50 votes to pass and must be at least 60% of the total votes; there is no throwaway I don't care vote here, and there will be no modifications after.

skorous

This is rough because you're right and I can see both sides ....

AnthonySmith

@skorous said:
This is rough because you're right and I can see both sides ....

Yep, it's because there is no wrong answer, it just depends what direction you want.

jaden

The voting is off to a slow start. If neither reaches the required 50 votes, I assume downvoters will continue to be hidden?

MannDude

I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Whats from stopping someone from creating five new accounts and always upvoting, "MyHostingCo is awesome!" and downvoting "YourHostingCo is awesome!" in a coordinated effort? Admins/mods could see it's always the same few accounts doing this and take appropriate actions for those who lack any sort of business ethics or civil sense.

lapua

mentally strong people can handle both praise and criticism. that’s why (also for transparency reasons) we should see both and not bow to the sick, “woke” zeitgeist. if you don’t see downvotes, then you shouldn’t see upvotes either.

xaoc

I was just thinking that it would be nice to see downvotes as well. But if you keep them hidden, might has well hide the upvotes.

poei

WSS

@MannDude said:
I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Whats from stopping someone from creating five new accounts and always upvoting, "MyHostingCo is awesome!" and downvoting "YourHostingCo is awesome!" in a coordinated effort? Admins/mods could see it's always the same few accounts doing this and take appropriate actions for those who lack any sort of business ethics or civil sense.

You do realize that this 100% exists for admins, because otherwise it'd be difficult to manage. You might as well be asking for water to be wet.

Not_Oles

The question:

Do you want to see who has downvoted you and who has upvoted you?

Or

Do you want downvotes to remain hidden?

Each side has a big advantage:

• Reveal: transparency is important

• Continue to conceal: freely express negative opinion without being singled out

My vote:

• Continue as is, i.e., continue to conceal.

Reasons:

1. Changing to reveal negative votes might destroy Members' previous expectation of voter privacy:

@AnthonySmith said: To be clear, this is all or nothing; it includes historic votes as well, not just new ones.

2. Changing to reveal negative votes would increase complexity because of new rules. New rules potentially introduce new, as yet not understood areas of ambiguity and confusion:

@AnthonySmith said: If we do go for a full reveal, there will be rules to go with it;

WSS

@Not_Oles said: Changing to reveal negative votes might destroy Members' previous expectation of voter privacy:

We've had downvotes for a couple of weeks. It's not like it's going to expose the Kennedy assination.

@Not_Oles said: Changing to reveal negative votes would increase complexity because of new rules. New rules potentially introduce new, as yet not understood areas of ambiguity and confusion:

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

AnthonySmith

@WSS said:

@MannDude said:
I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Whats from stopping someone from creating five new accounts and always upvoting, "MyHostingCo is awesome!" and downvoting "YourHostingCo is awesome!" in a coordinated effort? Admins/mods could see it's always the same few accounts doing this and take appropriate actions for those who lack any sort of business ethics or civil sense.

You do realize that this 100% exists for admins, because otherwise it'd be difficult to manage. You might as well be asking for water to be wet.

Just as an example: (I un-downvoted you haha)

WSS

@AnthonySmith said: I un-downvoted you

X

MannDude

@AnthonySmith said:

@WSS said:

@MannDude said:
I think it should be hidden to end-users, but visible to admins/mods. Why only admins/mods? It'll allow them to see if there is a sort of "campaign" for or against any individual.

Whats from stopping someone from creating five new accounts and always upvoting, "MyHostingCo is awesome!" and downvoting "YourHostingCo is awesome!" in a coordinated effort? Admins/mods could see it's always the same few accounts doing this and take appropriate actions for those who lack any sort of business ethics or civil sense.

You do realize that this 100% exists for admins, because otherwise it'd be difficult to manage. You might as well be asking for water to be wet.

Just as an example: (I un-downvoted you haha)

Good to know.

And no, I did not realize it was already available, hence the suggestion. I have no idea how Vanilla or VanillaVibe+ works. 😂

In that case, I don't care. I think you should show all up and down votes or not show either, after some consideration.

msatt

@WSS said: Thank you, Captain Obvious.

That is the exact reason why there should be downvotes without recrimination / visibility.
You can call it 'woke' or whatever but being polite is something I value so I would downvote those sorts or comments (btw I did not). However if there was visibility (of downvotes) then I could understand that there could be a backlash and drama.
So my overall feeling is don't show up/down votes.

WSS

@msatt said: That is the exact reason why there should be downvotes without recrimination / visibility.

Haven't you spent your entire career here shitting all over Virmach? Asking for a friend.

msatt

@WSS said: Haven't you spent your entire career here shitting all over Virmach? Asking for a friend.

No - I also compliment where it is due - I genuinely try to be fair unlike your regular trash / dick comments which I find irritating.
However again your comment highlights why @AnthonySmith is doing the right thing by introducing +/- Karma. This discussion is about what should be shown. My feeling is people should comment / discuss. Things can get justifiably heated and the community can use karma to give their feelings. However karma should not create more 'drama' it should just be a thermometer.

WSS

@msatt said: No - I also compliment where it is due - I genuinely try to be fair unlike your regular trash / dick comments which I find irritating.

You're deflecting. Answer my question directly as I asked you. You're a hypocrite. You're allowed to not like me, that's perfectly fine.

AnthonySmith

I see my concerns about it generally making this place a more combative environment were totally unfounded

WSS

@AnthonySmith said:
I see my concerns about it generally making this place a more combative environment were totally unfounded

He's been in my craw since about 2023. I just decided it was time to call him out when he's waxing on about PLUR but goes out of his way to shit on Soheil every chance he gets.

bikegremlin

On a Serbian forum I moderated, visible up and downvotes did cause drama - because it was that kind of crowd there (especially the regulars). Any option or excuse for drama you could say.

Likewise, I've seen forums where visible up and down votes were never a problem.

Having said that, if downvotes are publicly counted (as negative post rating or similar), they should not be anonymous. If they should be anonymous, then it should be only a positive votes option (in live communication I tend to make praises public and criticism private... unless I'm dealing with a vegan...).

msatt

@WSS said: You're deflecting. Answer my question directly as I asked you. You're a hypocrite. You're allowed to not like me, that's perfectly fine.

I have no idea what you are talking about - I suspect you are confusing me with someone else and I can assure you I do not bear grudges.
However, no deflection (I am not clever or can be bothered with that crap).
I did answer your question -

No - I also compliment where it is due

and YES I have complimented virmach.

So yes Anthony - I think @wss is showing all of my points and I am struggling to reframe my comments.
However lets see how many more karma points he can use against me.

mikho

@bikegremlin said: On a Serbian forum I moderated, visible up and downvotes did cause drama - because it was that kind of crowd there (especially the regulars). Any option or excuse for drama you could say.

Like a true Balkan, everything can (and often will) end up with a fight.

@bikegremlin said: (in live communication I tend to make praises public and criticism private... unless I'm dealing with a vegan...).

Hate against vegans.... the Balkan style

WSS

@msatt said: However lets see how many more karma points he can use against me.

Buddy. I haven't downvoted you at all (recently - not sure about history). I just consider you a slight annoyance. Truce? You can hate me, and I don't care about your FOSS shit, because I don't personally trust you. We can move on.

bikegremlin

@mikho said:

@bikegremlin said: On a Serbian forum I moderated, visible up and downvotes did cause drama - because it was that kind of crowd there (especially the regulars). Any option or excuse for drama you could say.

Like a true Balkan, everything can (and often will) end up with a fight.

@bikegremlin said: (in live communication I tend to make praises public and criticism private... unless I'm dealing with a vegan...).

Hate against vegans.... the Balkan style

It's all 'cause we care about the environment!

mikho

@bikegremlin said:

@mikho said:

@bikegremlin said: On a Serbian forum I moderated, visible up and downvotes did cause drama - because it was that kind of crowd there (especially the regulars). Any option or excuse for drama you could say.

Like a true Balkan, everything can (and often will) end up with a fight.

@bikegremlin said: (in live communication I tend to make praises public and criticism private... unless I'm dealing with a vegan...).

Hate against vegans.... the Balkan style

It's all 'cause we care about the environment!

Welll ... that video is Danish.... but I get your point

AnthonySmith

More people have voted on this now than on the $7 removal proposal haha. idk what that means, but it makes me laugh a bit.