The issue with EPYC is long contracts and poor single thread performance, there is no good config combination that works if you want to compete on price with the likes of Vultr, Do, hetzner, ovh clouds etc.
That is unless you go for an insane config like a high end EPYC with 1TB ram and about 10TB NVMe raid which no one is doing.
So I suppose the answer is to move the finance elsewhere and look at colo ryzen boxes, I will have to investigate it.
@AnthonySmith said:
The issue with EPYC is long contracts and poor single thread performance, there is no good config combination that works if you want to compete on price with the likes of Vultr, Do, hetzner, ovh clouds etc.
That is unless you go for an insane config like a high end EPYC with 1TB ram and about 10TB NVMe raid which no one is doing.
So I suppose the answer is to move the finance elsewhere and look at colo ryzen boxes, I will have to investigate it.
I beg to differ, biggest cloud providers run Epyc.
By all means you’re welcome to do that. This doesn’t make the platforms for Desktop CPU - Ryzen - in server chassis - any more available though, but I’ll be sure to take a careful note of this statement :-).
You’re more than welcome to find a platform that exists and has usable specs, and I’ll be more than happy to consider putting it in the offer. No one did so far. I understand the frustration with Intel, but as far as this thread is concerned I feel you’re all barking here at the wrong tree, until proven otherwise.
I don’t appreciate the attempts of Intel shaming me, you’re trying to do here. If anything this will only make me spend my time elsewhere.
And please, when actually researching, don’t come back with the asrock platforms that have single PCIe, 1G only and no NVMe as that’s more absurd to invest in than Intel.
Current options: Tyan - they have a mobo marketed for workstation but no platform, they don’t want to take any responsibility for this overheating. 1U chassis is risky, 2U will be expensive to the Customer. People who tried recommend 4U/Tower or external water cooling.
Asrock, they do in fact have a very custom chassis that houses their
Ryzen motherboard, does not support NVMe on the backplane or motherboard, and has one usable PCIe slot, so you’re loosing hard in storage.
Everything else is basically custom DIY you can do, but with how hot they like to run, they are not designed for servers, You don’t have many options available to deal with for a commercial dedicated server that needs to work well and be supported. There is a reason virtually no one is offering these as servers.
I’m more than happy to be proved otherwise, I only spent a couple of hours re-researching options and I’m pleased to find that workstation motherboard are now readily available but the server platforms are still rare and flawed.
I do understand the Ryzen hype train, but I’m still a bit weary of using them. Fact is: these are consumer grade CPU’s designed for desktops. Not for servers. This is no problem when using them for your own hobby VM or dedi, but I wouldn’t use them for production environments. EPYC on the other hand...
Companies like Hetzner, RS and OVH have a long history of providing consumer CPU’s. They probably have best practices.
@vpsgeek said:
Anyone got some idea on how much is the impact on performance by applying microcode updates to mitigate this issue?
I don’t think they released the microcode, the one I have in hand doesn’t mention in the changelog. I’ve chased SM to see if there’s something newer I might have no access to.
Digital Ocean mentioned they are also waiting in their mailing.
@debaser they are also, at least Hetzner and OVH out of prime locations so cost of space is less and so they can do 2U+ chassis to accommodate this desktop without hiking the price.
@Clouvider said: I beg to differ, biggest cloud providers run Epyc.
Hi welcome to lowend*
@Clouvider said: I don’t appreciate the attempts of Intel shaming me, you’re trying to do here. If anything this will only make me spend my time elsewhere.
You should see it as a compliment, I am desperate to give you more money above other already available options
@Clouvider said: @debaser they are also, at least Hetzner and OVH out of prime locations so cost of space is less and so they can do 2U+ chassis to accommodate this desktop without hiking the price.
This is true as well of course. These providers don’t just own a DC but own vast complexes. That being said, I wouldn’t know if their Ryzen dedis are 1U, 2U or maybe even 4U. Maybe @Hetzner_OL or @ninzo59 will share this information (probably not, but can’t blame me for trying).
@Clouvider said: Of course Intel is in defence now, but it’s not like AMD is an ultimate solution in this particular segment yet.
I guess in your position it does not pose as much risk to your business, for us little guys this is truly horrible, sorry if I got your back up I am not trying to, I am just trying to get across in good humor how serious I am about wanting an alternative to build on.
The difference between standing up a hand full of new E3 based nodes and a few EPYC nodes is night and day in terms of cost and commitment.
The only host I can find that quickly outside of OVH and hetzner is reliablesite they offer:
12/24 Ryzen 3900X, 128GB DDR4, 150TB BW @ 10gbit, 4 x NVMe slots, IPMI/KVM at $258 in NewYork Metro.
That seems like a good fair price to me, that can probably be brought down 20 - 30% with a contract, not that I am particularly interested in a whole new location and I believe reliablesite had some drama recently but they are old and known so is probably a fair price guide.
I don't think there is anything intel comparable that wont require 4 microcode updates a year, no HT and slowly degrading performance.
So I don't mean to piss you off @clouvider I just assumed you would be able to come up with an option because I actually want to spend money with you first and thought you simply would not entertain it for no other reason than its a desktop CPU which frankly in isolation is nonsense now, but I accept that not in isolation there is more to it.
Everyone should disable Hyper-Threading. It causes the two threads in a core to compete with each other on L1 and L2 caches. Today the bottleneck is memory access, not number of instructions. Thus, Hyper-Threading makes programs run slower.
Everyone should disable Hyper-Threading. It causes the two threads in a core to compete with each other on L1 and L2 caches. Today the bottleneck is memory access, not number of instructions. Thus, Hyper-Threading makes programs run slower.
But it means less vCPU then? Then per node there will be less VPS can be made?
Everyone should disable Hyper-Threading. It causes the two threads in a core to compete with each other on L1 and L2 caches. Today the bottleneck is memory access, not number of instructions. Thus, Hyper-Threading makes programs run slower.
Interesting. The bottleneck is still RAM for DDR4?
@AnthonySmith I think the only real option for running Ryzen at the moment is to colo, especially if you want to be competitive. The guys doing it like @Francisco and @MikeA are buying boards and CPUs and making it work in their own racks.
I can't blame @Clouvider for not jumping in head first at the moment. To do Ryzen in the DC it requires manually assembling boxes with parts from a variety of manufacturers, with IPMI software that doesn't integrate with his automation, non-standard warranty processes if something breaks, etc. Just crazy amounts of time and overhead in bare metal where the goal is to touch the gear as little as possible to turn a profit.
The day Supermicro launches an AM4 microcloud I'm sure he'll be lined up though, something that's supported well and comes with all the management features needed to work with his setup.
I think your best bet if you want to make a Ryzen move to stay competitive would be to get a business account with a credit line from Amazon/Newegg/whoever and assemble your own boxes and rent a rack to stick them in.
@Harambe said: @AnthonySmith I think the only real option for running Ryzen at the moment is to colo, especially if you want to be competitive. The guys doing it like @Francisco and @MikeA are buying boards and CPUs and making it work in their own racks.
I can't blame @Clouvider for not jumping in head first at the moment. To do Ryzen in the DC it requires manually assembling boxes with parts from a variety of manufacturers, with IPMI software that doesn't integrate with his automation, non-standard warranty processes if something breaks, etc. Just crazy amounts of time and overhead in bare metal where the goal is to touch the gear as little as possible to turn a profit.
The day Supermicro launches an AM4 microcloud I'm sure he'll be lined up though, something that's supported well and comes with all the management features needed to work with his setup.
I think your best bet if you want to make a Ryzen move to stay competitive would be to get a business account with a credit line from Amazon/Newegg/whoever and assemble your own boxes and rent a rack to stick them in.
Yep fair enough, I just have a very bad intel taste in my mouth right now.
Yep fair enough, I just have a very bad intel taste in my mouth right now.
Oh I get it man. Providers have it tough at the moment, your gear still costs the same to keep up but every month it gets slower. I do not envy you over here in the in-house sysadmin world where you're not dealing with multiple tenants and can just boot with mitigations=off #yolo
Comments
I'll be moving all of my Intel VMs to Ryzen throughout the next few months as well. Already done a little bit.
ExtraVM
This is why y'all should consider @MikeA if you are thinking of changing your VPS from Intel to AMD. Super proactive provider.
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The issue with EPYC is long contracts and poor single thread performance, there is no good config combination that works if you want to compete on price with the likes of Vultr, Do, hetzner, ovh clouds etc.
That is unless you go for an insane config like a high end EPYC with 1TB ram and about 10TB NVMe raid which no one is doing.
So I suppose the answer is to move the finance elsewhere and look at colo ryzen boxes, I will have to investigate it.
https://inceptionhosting.com
Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.
From today onward I am not going to shop for shared hosting & vps from any provider using Intel until they start offering AMD
Recommend: SmallWeb|BuyVM|Linode|RamNode
I beg to differ, biggest cloud providers run Epyc.
By all means you’re welcome to do that. This doesn’t make the platforms for Desktop CPU - Ryzen - in server chassis - any more available though, but I’ll be sure to take a careful note of this statement :-).
You’re more than welcome to find a platform that exists and has usable specs, and I’ll be more than happy to consider putting it in the offer. No one did so far. I understand the frustration with Intel, but as far as this thread is concerned I feel you’re all barking here at the wrong tree, until proven otherwise.
I don’t appreciate the attempts of Intel shaming me, you’re trying to do here. If anything this will only make me spend my time elsewhere.
And please, when actually researching, don’t come back with the asrock platforms that have single PCIe, 1G only and no NVMe as that’s more absurd to invest in than Intel.
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 6 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
how do you deal with lack of IPMI?
Current options: Tyan - they have a mobo marketed for workstation but no platform, they don’t want to take any responsibility for this overheating. 1U chassis is risky, 2U will be expensive to the Customer. People who tried recommend 4U/Tower or external water cooling.
Asrock, they do in fact have a very custom chassis that houses their
Ryzen motherboard, does not support NVMe on the backplane or motherboard, and has one usable PCIe slot, so you’re loosing hard in storage.
Everything else is basically custom DIY you can do, but with how hot they like to run, they are not designed for servers, You don’t have many options available to deal with for a commercial dedicated server that needs to work well and be supported. There is a reason virtually no one is offering these as servers.
I’m more than happy to be proved otherwise, I only spent a couple of hours re-researching options and I’m pleased to find that workstation motherboard are now readily available but the server platforms are still rare and flawed.
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 6 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
And cooling?
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 6 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
IPMI is no problem, the ASROCK boards have it.
Cooling is harder but so far things have been decent.
The supermicro chassis i'm using have 3 x 15k RPM fans at the front that do help push a lot of air.
I wouldn't mind finding a 1U passive and see if that'd work better than the active.
Francisco
I bench YABS 24/7/365 unless it's a leap year.
clouvider network (UK) is good. dont know how these colo things work but hope ryzens end up in there one way or another.
I bench YABS 24/7/365 unless it's a leap year.
I do understand the Ryzen hype train, but I’m still a bit weary of using them. Fact is: these are consumer grade CPU’s designed for desktops. Not for servers. This is no problem when using them for your own hobby VM or dedi, but I wouldn’t use them for production environments. EPYC on the other hand...
Companies like Hetzner, RS and OVH have a long history of providing consumer CPU’s. They probably have best practices.
@Francisco to confirm, you’re doing it in 2U at the moment?
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 6 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
Anyone got some idea on how much is the impact on performance by applying microcode updates to mitigate this issue?
Recommend: SmallWeb|BuyVM|Linode|RamNode
I don’t think they released the microcode, the one I have in hand doesn’t mention in the changelog. I’ve chased SM to see if there’s something newer I might have no access to.
Digital Ocean mentioned they are also waiting in their mailing.
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 6 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
@debaser they are also, at least Hetzner and OVH out of prime locations so cost of space is less and so they can do 2U+ chassis to accommodate this desktop without hiking the price.
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 6 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
Now I've seen it all!
Get the best deal on your next VPS or Shared/Reseller hosting from RacknerdTracker.com - The original aff garden.
Hi welcome to lowend*
You should see it as a compliment, I am desperate to give you more money above other already available options
https://inceptionhosting.com
Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.
This is true as well of course. These providers don’t just own a DC but own vast complexes. That being said, I wouldn’t know if their Ryzen dedis are 1U, 2U or maybe even 4U. Maybe @Hetzner_OL or @ninzo59 will share this information (probably not, but can’t blame me for trying).
See, I’m coining out new phrases. When everyone uses it remind them I did it
Of course Intel is in defence now, but it’s not like AMD is an ultimate solution in this particular segment yet.
Clouvider Limited - VPS in 6 datacenters - Intel Xeon/AMD Epyc with NVMe and 10G uplink! | Dedicated Servers
I guess in your position it does not pose as much risk to your business, for us little guys this is truly horrible, sorry if I got your back up I am not trying to, I am just trying to get across in good humor how serious I am about wanting an alternative to build on.
The difference between standing up a hand full of new E3 based nodes and a few EPYC nodes is night and day in terms of cost and commitment.
The only host I can find that quickly outside of OVH and hetzner is reliablesite they offer:
12/24 Ryzen 3900X, 128GB DDR4, 150TB BW @ 10gbit, 4 x NVMe slots, IPMI/KVM at $258 in NewYork Metro.
That seems like a good fair price to me, that can probably be brought down 20 - 30% with a contract, not that I am particularly interested in a whole new location and I believe reliablesite had some drama recently but they are old and known so is probably a fair price guide.
I don't think there is anything intel comparable that wont require 4 microcode updates a year, no HT and slowly degrading performance.
So I don't mean to piss you off @clouvider I just assumed you would be able to come up with an option because I actually want to spend money with you first and thought you simply would not entertain it for no other reason than its a desktop CPU which frankly in isolation is nonsense now, but I accept that not in isolation there is more to it.
https://inceptionhosting.com
Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.
@AnthonySmith do all providers on Intel have HT disabled?
Recommend: SmallWeb|BuyVM|Linode|RamNode
Everyone should disable Hyper-Threading. It causes the two threads in a core to compete with each other on L1 and L2 caches. Today the bottleneck is memory access, not number of instructions. Thus, Hyper-Threading makes programs run slower.
HostBrr aff best VPS; VirmAche aff worst VPS.
Unable to push-up due to shoulder injury 😣
But it means less vCPU then? Then per node there will be less VPS can be made?
I bench YABS 24/7/365 unless it's a leap year.
Interesting. The bottleneck is still RAM for DDR4?
Deals and Reviews: LowEndBoxes Review | Avoid dodgy providers with The LEBRE Whitelist | Free hosting (with conditions): Evolution-Host, NanoKVM, FreeMach, ServedEZ | Get expert copyediting and copywriting help at The Write Flow
1U Supermicro chassis (via the FT discord)
🦍🍌
Ryzen forever.
The same for your dicks as well.
Edit: No wait, forever-Ryzen dicks can be a huge issue. Nevermind my second line.
♻ Amitz day is October 21.
♻ Join Nigh sect by adopting my avatar. Let us spread the joys of the end.
@AnthonySmith I think the only real option for running Ryzen at the moment is to colo, especially if you want to be competitive. The guys doing it like @Francisco and @MikeA are buying boards and CPUs and making it work in their own racks.
I can't blame @Clouvider for not jumping in head first at the moment. To do Ryzen in the DC it requires manually assembling boxes with parts from a variety of manufacturers, with IPMI software that doesn't integrate with his automation, non-standard warranty processes if something breaks, etc. Just crazy amounts of time and overhead in bare metal where the goal is to touch the gear as little as possible to turn a profit.
The day Supermicro launches an AM4 microcloud I'm sure he'll be lined up though, something that's supported well and comes with all the management features needed to work with his setup.
I think your best bet if you want to make a Ryzen move to stay competitive would be to get a business account with a credit line from Amazon/Newegg/whoever and assemble your own boxes and rent a rack to stick them in.
🦍🍌
Yep fair enough, I just have a very bad intel taste in my mouth right now.
https://inceptionhosting.com
Please do not use the PM system here for Inception Hosting support issues.
Oh I get it man. Providers have it tough at the moment, your gear still costs the same to keep up but every month it gets slower. I do not envy you over here in the in-house sysadmin world where you're not dealing with multiple tenants and can just boot with
mitigations=off#yolo🦍🍌