@crunchbits said: Tried the IPv6 only option, but I think it was @host_c who said (and happened to us too): about 90-95% of those orders asked for an IPv4 address within a month.
Yapp,
It actual was you who said it first, I was second to give you OK on that, and it was on a thread here on LES. ( can't remember the one, so many ... but I am paying attention what established providers write here and there )
IPv6 only is a no go for the moment.
Sub 12 USD deals / year ( whatever from a V4 upwards ) by today prices is 0 in profit or damn close to it. At least for EU, I cannot comment on US costs for the moment.
I advise users seeing sub 12 USD / year offers to grab one, as you might not see them for a while, or they will be hard to do for some at some-point later this year.
It is to soon for future ( 2025 ) guesses, but yes, a general spike in prices ( regardless of hostler/region ) might/will happen.
The US/EU/CA/CN/MX shit show will actually be worse on the long term, but I do not wish to debate politics here.
@Scaleblade said: Also in your opinion is this kind of service even wanted on these sites anymore?
yes, AMD Ryzen systems are on search for most as 1 vCore AMD Ryzen will take out ±3 to 4 V4's ( except the W V4 series, then only 2 ) and all of this if cpu steal is 0. So basically @ 5-7 USD / MO on 1vCore you get 2 to 4 vCores of V4 at same price. my problem is density, as DDR4 AMD Ryzen systems are limited to 128 GB ram and DDR5 to 192 GB RAM.
@Scaleblade said: The more I look I see less and less latest gen ryzens appearing and more of this older Xeon E5-V4 cpu's for $7/yr.
As they are cheap, but power is not and What/MHz/CORE Count they suck for today's workload, sincerely, the provider either has electricity at sub 0.25 USD or he did not do the math on the long run ( 12 mo at minimum ). Some V4's can push 1000-1200 in GB6, but they will flat out there, while a AMD Ryzen 7/9 DDR4 ca do 2000 without braking a sweat.
Xeon Scale gen 2 ( ±2.5 GHZ ) can do 1.1-1.5K in GB 6 also while not melting the PSU, thus competing with AMD Epyc DDR4 systems.
7 USD / YEAR is a good Marketing tool, use it wisely and you are ok, too much, well, not good .
Think of this regarding the 7 USD deals, either give $$ to google/meta/etc for ads, or give it as credit to customers and grow like that.
We have similar spec available in Chicago and soon in London, currently priced at 4GBP/mo, not exactly low end pricing.
But given the investment done on the hardware and to maintain the regular (E5v4 at 3GBP/mo) price on our website, we have to keep it at 4GBP/mo if not more.
We dont really throttle CPU on our nodes, always 100% for every client no matter how small or big, or LE* deal. How we keep track is, once the average CPU usage of the node hits 30%, we stop deploying more VMs on it. Some nodes got 40-50 VMs and some even hit 80 VMs. Literally depends on how good your neighbours are
We do throw offers like 15% off or more time to time, to make us more low end friendly! Sometimes even craziest deals to get some attention so people remember us haha.
@host_c said: 7 USD / YEAR is a good Marketing tool, use it wisely and you are ok, too much, well, not good .
It's $7 now - soon I'm sure "they'll" be demanding $5 etc etc... People are expecting more for less than they'd ever give Godaddy for a sh*tty website
This is always true, as all of us want to pay less for more. I wish to pay less for electricity for example, and 40G net lines so I can do more at the same expenses.
But that is not happening for me, and I am pretty sure for most is the same.
It is ok to throw in a limited 7USD deals, but that is is. I will ping @crunchbits here, as they stopped that trend for a while, so did we, and most other providers.
Things will change in the future, for example, LES banned the post your SSN for double the whatever, and I salute LES staff for this.
There are so many ways to engage with customers, that one was the lamest.
So will the "hey, give me a 7USD/ year deal" be dead at some point??? My opinion is yes, It is a qestion of time rather then a qestion of "if".
Now, if you wish to debate the OGF trend, this might not be the correct forum for that, even if some of us are present on both.
@host_c said: This is always true, as all of us want to pay less for more. I wish to pay less for electricity for example, and 40G net lines so I can do more at the same expenses.
@host_c said: This is always true, as all of us want to pay less for more. I wish to pay less for electricity for example, and 40G net lines so I can do more at the same expenses.
Haha, this!! Don't we all
We all do, see, 7USD/Debian for 1 KW of power / mo, I would take 1000X of those
I think it will flame out in time, as at that price point, today you will get a constant supply of E5 V2, you can get DDR5 Ryzen 9's in probably 5 Years, just wait for it
Host-C - VPS & Storage VPS Services – Reliable, Scalable and Fast - AS211462
It is ok to throw in a limited 7USD deals, but that is is. I will ping @crunchbits here, as they stopped that trend for a while, so did we, and most other providers.
For me specifically it was more that it was being abused by non-target markets. Getting literal boatloads of transient customers who hop at the first sign of saving 1 cent per year or abuse your IP space until GFW bans it and then demands you "fix it" for an issue that doesn't even exist in your country isn't worth the "marketing" spend. Throw in the penchant to charge back for anything, even when we say "yes" to refunds and I had my fill. There was nothing to be gained from that in a business sense.
The actual forum users that we wanted to appeal to and get feedback from just ended up frustrated because 400 scrapers were buying stuff up/circumventing the minimal safeguards put in place. Turned a win/win into a lose/lose, so we had to stop for the time being. Things are being put in place to have fun contests, laugh, throw some proper deals out to the community, etc but I don't want to repeat the earlier mistakes.
@Kuroit said:
We have similar spec available in Chicago and soon in London, currently priced at 4GBP/mo, not exactly low end pricing.
But given the investment done on the hardware and to maintain the regular (E5v4 at 3GBP/mo) price on our website, we have to keep it at 4GBP/mo if not more.
We dont really throttle CPU on our nodes, always 100% for every client no matter how small or big, or LE* deal. How we keep track is, once the average CPU usage of the node hits 30%, we stop deploying more VMs on it. Some nodes got 40-50 VMs and some even hit 80 VMs. Literally depends on how good your neighbours are
We do throw offers like 15% off or more time to time, to make us more low end friendly! Sometimes even craziest deals to get some attention so people remember us haha.
It is ok to throw in a limited 7USD deals, but that is is. I will ping @crunchbits here, as they stopped that trend for a while, so did we, and most other providers.
For me specifically it was more that it was being abused by non-target markets. Getting literal boatloads of transient customers who hop at the first sign of saving 1 cent per year or abuse your IP space until GFW bans it and then demands you "fix it" for an issue that doesn't even exist in your country isn't worth the "marketing" spend. Throw in the penchant to charge back for anything, even when we say "yes" to refunds and I had my fill. There was nothing to be gained from that in a business sense.
The actual forum users that we wanted to appeal to and get feedback from just ended up frustrated because 400 scrapers were buying stuff up/circumventing the minimal safeguards put in place. Turned a win/win into a lose/lose, so we had to stop for the time being. Things are being put in place to have fun contests, laugh, throw some proper deals out to the community, etc but I don't want to repeat the earlier mistakes.
I will again second the above. ( damn I sound like a copy-cat lurker ) but it is what it is, and it is true.
In the case above yes. If you keep a general rule of total CPU usage below 50% then the services are VDS-like, no true VDS as VM cores are not pinned to a physical core - I highly doubt anyone would do this sincerely.
We do the same, if a node has more then 50% we start to migrate customers to balance it at 50% and occasionally we will throw in some deals of 1-4TB to consume the space left free if any.
The outcome will be that a service will have ~90-100% of CPU power that it should, and not sink to 450 in GB6 tests for example.
This approach also has some benefits:
good power / Mhz / Core usage = decent power drain at the plug = we are happy, yeeeee ( except the R740XD2, those suck 740W regardless what you do )
customers do not feel neighbors, they are happy, win-win
as a provider you can let users go 100% on cpu for a few hours / day ( if they do more cpu intensive stuff ) and will not disturb neighbors, again win-win.
@Kuroit said:
We have similar spec available in Chicago and soon in London, currently priced at 4GBP/mo, not exactly low end pricing.
But given the investment done on the hardware and to maintain the regular (E5v4 at 3GBP/mo) price on our website, we have to keep it at 4GBP/mo if not more.
We dont really throttle CPU on our nodes, always 100% for every client no matter how small or big, or LE* deal. How we keep track is, once the average CPU usage of the node hits 30%, we stop deploying more VMs on it. Some nodes got 40-50 VMs and some even hit 80 VMs. Literally depends on how good your neighbours are
We do throw offers like 15% off or more time to time, to make us more low end friendly! Sometimes even craziest deals to get some attention so people remember us haha.
It is ok to throw in a limited 7USD deals, but that is is. I will ping @crunchbits here, as they stopped that trend for a while, so did we, and most other providers.
For me specifically it was more that it was being abused by non-target markets. Getting literal boatloads of transient customers who hop at the first sign of saving 1 cent per year or abuse your IP space until GFW bans it and then demands you "fix it" for an issue that doesn't even exist in your country isn't worth the "marketing" spend. Throw in the penchant to charge back for anything, even when we say "yes" to refunds and I had my fill. There was nothing to be gained from that in a business sense.
The actual forum users that we wanted to appeal to and get feedback from just ended up frustrated because 400 scrapers were buying stuff up/circumventing the minimal safeguards put in place. Turned a win/win into a lose/lose, so we had to stop for the time being. Things are being put in place to have fun contests, laugh, throw some proper deals out to the community, etc but I don't want to repeat the earlier mistakes.
so would you say there is a "bottom" price where lower than that, attract transient customers but if you keep your pricing equal to or higher than that, all you get is great customers?
It is ok to throw in a limited 7USD deals, but that is is. I will ping @crunchbits here, as they stopped that trend for a while, so did we, and most other providers.
For me specifically it was more that it was being abused by non-target markets. Getting literal boatloads of transient customers who hop at the first sign of saving 1 cent per year or abuse your IP space until GFW bans it and then demands you "fix it" for an issue that doesn't even exist in your country isn't worth the "marketing" spend. Throw in the penchant to charge back for anything, even when we say "yes" to refunds and I had my fill. There was nothing to be gained from that in a business sense.
The actual forum users that we wanted to appeal to and get feedback from just ended up frustrated because 400 scrapers were buying stuff up/circumventing the minimal safeguards put in place. Turned a win/win into a lose/lose, so we had to stop for the time being. Things are being put in place to have fun contests, laugh, throw some proper deals out to the community, etc but I don't want to repeat the earlier mistakes.
so would you say there is a "bottom" price where lower than that, attract transient customers but if you keep your pricing equal to or higher than that, all you get is great customers?
Hmm, not necessarily. The price to exclude them completely is above anything that would sell on LE-focused forums.
It’s a bit of a mixed bag, but you can just look at where bigger publicly traded providers price things and get an idea. That’s going to be a customer who signs up, expects it to work for their use case, and you basically never hear from unless there’s an actual big issue.
When you get lower in price there’s an increased correlation of “demands” like pushing synthetic measurements such as YABS, network speed tests, complaints about $0.89 VPS RDP connectivity to XYZ country 250ms from the US somewhere, etc. You don’t see that on AWS, DO, or Vultr stuff very often, if ever. I’m definitely not moaning about it, because I personally think the LE side is excellent gauntlet that only makes you stronger and more experienced/resilient. I expect a big portion is that the forums are a lot of technically adept individuals/true hobbyists learning new things and when every one of us providers has a similar E5 or Ryzen offering, how else can you start to differentiate? I also enjoy nuanced technical discussion and going down rabbit hole on HDDs or types of switches/routers and how to make it perform better, etc.
@crunchbits said: You don’t see that on AWS, DO, or Vultr stuff very often, if ever... I expect a big portion is that the forums are a lot of technically adept individuals/true hobbyists learning new things
Dumb => pay the price
Scum => a price to pay
Savvy => yipee!
I think on promos put a rule like no returns + no transfers [it reduces scalpers] also @FAT32 introduced something new in gcvps thread that worked in VIP levels which was based on how much active was one in a thread [can't say anything bout the abusers though ]
Comments
Yapp,
It actual was you who said it first, I was second to give you OK on that, and it was on a thread here on LES. ( can't remember the one, so many ... but I am paying attention what established providers write here and there
)
IPv6 only is a no go for the moment.
Sub 12 USD deals / year ( whatever from a V4 upwards ) by today prices is 0 in profit or damn close to it. At least for EU, I cannot comment on US costs for the moment.
I advise users seeing sub 12 USD / year offers to grab one, as you might not see them for a while, or they will be hard to do for some at some-point later this year.
It is to soon for future ( 2025 ) guesses, but yes, a general spike in prices ( regardless of hostler/region ) might/will happen.
The US/EU/CA/CN/MX shit show will actually be worse on the long term, but I do not wish to debate politics here.
yes, AMD Ryzen systems are on search for most as 1 vCore AMD Ryzen will take out ±3 to 4 V4's ( except the W V4 series, then only 2 ) and all of this if cpu steal is 0. So basically @ 5-7 USD / MO on 1vCore you get 2 to 4 vCores of V4 at same price. my problem is density, as DDR4 AMD Ryzen systems are limited to 128 GB ram and DDR5 to 192 GB RAM.
As they are cheap, but power is not and What/MHz/CORE Count they suck for today's workload, sincerely, the provider either has electricity at sub 0.25 USD or he did not do the math on the long run ( 12 mo at minimum ). Some V4's can push 1000-1200 in GB6, but they will flat out there, while a AMD Ryzen 7/9 DDR4 ca do 2000 without braking a sweat.
Xeon Scale gen 2 ( ±2.5 GHZ ) can do 1.1-1.5K in GB 6 also while not melting the PSU, thus competing with AMD Epyc DDR4 systems.
7 USD / YEAR is a good Marketing tool, use it wisely and you are ok, too much, well, not good
.
Think of this regarding the 7 USD deals, either give $$ to google/meta/etc for ads, or give it as credit to customers and grow like that.
Host-C - VPS & Storage VPS Services – Reliable, Scalable and Fast - AS211462
"If there is no struggle there is no progress"
It's $7 now - soon I'm sure "they'll" be demanding $5 etc etc... People are expecting more for less than they'd ever give Godaddy for a sh*tty website
We have similar spec available in Chicago and soon in London, currently priced at 4GBP/mo, not exactly low end pricing.
But given the investment done on the hardware and to maintain the regular (E5v4 at 3GBP/mo) price on our website, we have to keep it at 4GBP/mo if not more.
We dont really throttle CPU on our nodes, always 100% for every client no matter how small or big, or LE* deal. How we keep track is, once the average CPU usage of the node hits 30%, we stop deploying more VMs on it. Some nodes got 40-50 VMs and some even hit 80 VMs. Literally depends on how good your neighbours are
We do throw offers like 15% off or more time to time, to make us more low end friendly! Sometimes even craziest deals to get some attention so people remember us haha.
https://www.kuroit.com - Managed cPanel Hosting & VPS Hosting in UK
This is always true, as all of us want to pay less for more. I wish to pay less for electricity for example, and 40G net lines so I can do more at the same expenses.
But that is not happening for me, and I am pretty sure for most is the same.
It is ok to throw in a limited 7USD deals, but that is is. I will ping @crunchbits here, as they stopped that trend for a while, so did we, and most other providers.
Things will change in the future, for example, LES banned the post your SSN for double the whatever, and I salute LES staff for this.
There are so many ways to engage with customers, that one was the lamest.
So will the "hey, give me a 7USD/ year deal" be dead at some point??? My opinion is yes, It is a qestion of time rather then a qestion of "if".
Now, if you wish to debate the OGF trend, this might not be the correct forum for that, even if some of us are present on both.
PS: @Kuroit - hello
Host-C - VPS & Storage VPS Services – Reliable, Scalable and Fast - AS211462
"If there is no struggle there is no progress"
Haha, this!! Don't we all
We all do, see, 7USD/Debian for 1 KW of power / mo, I would take 1000X of those
I think it will flame out in time, as at that price point, today you will get a constant supply of E5 V2, you can get DDR5 Ryzen 9's in probably 5 Years, just wait for it
Host-C - VPS & Storage VPS Services – Reliable, Scalable and Fast - AS211462
"If there is no struggle there is no progress"
You mean when they’re all burnt to a crisp - desktop processor running 24/7 workloads 😬
For me specifically it was more that it was being abused by non-target markets. Getting literal boatloads of transient customers who hop at the first sign of saving 1 cent per year or abuse your IP space until GFW bans it and then demands you "fix it" for an issue that doesn't even exist in your country isn't worth the "marketing" spend. Throw in the penchant to charge back for anything, even when we say "yes" to refunds and I had my fill. There was nothing to be gained from that in a business sense.
The actual forum users that we wanted to appeal to and get feedback from just ended up frustrated because 400 scrapers were buying stuff up/circumventing the minimal safeguards put in place. Turned a win/win into a lose/lose, so we had to stop for the time being. Things are being put in place to have fun contests, laugh, throw some proper deals out to the community, etc but I don't want to repeat the earlier mistakes.
NVMe VPS | Ryzen 7950X VDS | Dedicated Servers -- Crunchbits.com
So, @Kuroit VPSes are like VDS effectively?
I will again second the above. ( damn I sound like a copy-cat lurker ) but it is what it is, and it is true.
In the case above yes. If you keep a general rule of total CPU usage below 50% then the services are VDS-like, no true VDS as VM cores are not pinned to a physical core - I highly doubt anyone would do this sincerely.
We do the same, if a node has more then 50% we start to migrate customers to balance it at 50% and occasionally we will throw in some deals of 1-4TB to consume the space left free if any.
The outcome will be that a service will have ~90-100% of CPU power that it should, and not sink to 450 in GB6 tests for example.
This approach also has some benefits:
Host-C - VPS & Storage VPS Services – Reliable, Scalable and Fast - AS211462
"If there is no struggle there is no progress"
Essentially yes, but if we find you using 100% CPU all the time, then we throttle it
100% CPU for few hours, random days, we're all good! 100% CPU 24/7, no good!
https://www.kuroit.com - Managed cPanel Hosting & VPS Hosting in UK
so would you say there is a "bottom" price where lower than that, attract transient customers but if you keep your pricing equal to or higher than that, all you get is great customers?
The all seeing eye sees everything...
Hmm, not necessarily. The price to exclude them completely is above anything that would sell on LE-focused forums.
It’s a bit of a mixed bag, but you can just look at where bigger publicly traded providers price things and get an idea. That’s going to be a customer who signs up, expects it to work for their use case, and you basically never hear from unless there’s an actual big issue.
When you get lower in price there’s an increased correlation of “demands” like pushing synthetic measurements such as YABS, network speed tests, complaints about $0.89 VPS RDP connectivity to XYZ country 250ms from the US somewhere, etc. You don’t see that on AWS, DO, or Vultr stuff very often, if ever. I’m definitely not moaning about it, because I personally think the LE side is excellent gauntlet that only makes you stronger and more experienced/resilient. I expect a big portion is that the forums are a lot of technically adept individuals/true hobbyists learning new things and when every one of us providers has a similar E5 or Ryzen offering, how else can you start to differentiate? I also enjoy nuanced technical discussion and going down rabbit hole on HDDs or types of switches/routers and how to make it perform better, etc.
NVMe VPS | Ryzen 7950X VDS | Dedicated Servers -- Crunchbits.com
Dumb => pay the price
Scum => a price to pay
Savvy => yipee!
It wisnae me! A big boy done it and ran away.
NVMe2G for life! until death (the end is nigh)
I think on promos put a rule like no returns + no transfers [it reduces scalpers] also @FAT32 introduced something new in gcvps thread that worked in VIP levels which was based on how much active was one in a thread
[can't say anything bout the abusers though 
] 