@AnthonySmith said: I am interested in your opinion on something, there are some locations that are just expensive, no way is tierhive sustainable in those locations, do you think adding a multiplier, e.g. 1.5x token costs, obvious at the point of sale, is the right way to go or just don't bother with ultra exotic locations or something else?
Think Kenya, Lagos, iceland, Edinborough etc etc, not your standard locations.
Would love to see TierHive open up in Indonesia — Jakarta, Batam, Bogor, Surabaya would be awesome spots. Totally fine if you need to add a multiplier on the tokens, that’s fair.
@AnthonySmith said:
2. Storage VPS options now available in London AND Vint Hill USA, probably the cheapest option possible, if anyone knows cheaper, let me know!!
A little benchmarking with fio shows the HDDs(Vint Hill) running at 99/100 IOPS read/write. The root disk(Fast NVME) in Low IOPS mode clocks in at 55/57 IOPS read/write.
In this situation, moving the entire OS to the HDD may actually make the VPS disk IOPS ~100% faster, for an additional 0.000004 tokens/hr(for 1GB of HDD). No practical use perhaps, but it was a fun experiment nonetheless.
@AnthonySmith said: I am interested in your opinion on something, there are some locations that are just expensive, no way is tierhive sustainable in those locations, do you think adding a multiplier, e.g. 1.5x token costs, obvious at the point of sale, is the right way to go or just don't bother with ultra exotic locations or something else?
Think Kenya, Lagos, iceland, Edinborough etc etc, not your standard locations.
Would love to see TierHive open up in Indonesia — Jakarta, Batam, Bogor, Surabaya would be awesome spots. Totally fine if you need to add a multiplier on the tokens, that’s fair.
The plan is to be everywhere, naturally we are focusing on the cheaper locations first but if anyone has any recommendations on hosts in other locations I am keeping a list locally.
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@AnthonySmith said:
2. Storage VPS options now available in London AND Vint Hill USA, probably the cheapest option possible, if anyone knows cheaper, let me know!!
A little benchmarking with fio shows the HDDs(Vint Hill) running at 99/100 IOPS read/write. The root disk(Fast NVME) in Low IOPS mode clocks in at 55/57 IOPS read/write.
In this situation, moving the entire OS to the HDD may actually make the VPS disk IOPS ~100% faster, for an additional 0.000004 tokens/hr(for 1GB of HDD). No practical use perhaps, but it was a fun experiment nonetheless.
Hmm it's not quite that simple, you can't measure the iops that your VPS needs to exist in order to run the benchmark to begin with.
The hdd is not also running the os and also does not get the burstable IO that the main disk does.
Although that said running on low priority mode in most cases will cap you at around 200 iops currently on an active node.
Also, you can change the priority of the nvme unlike the HDD.
But I see what you mean either way, on the surface the numbers are odd.
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Edit: Forgot to say, IPv6 and HAProxy are also available, and Amsterdam has a 2.5 multiplier on network speed.
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@sshbox said:
What does network speed multiplier in AMS mean?
How is life of service defined?
What qualifies as an upgrade or downgrade?
P.S. You need to update your sig.
P.P.S Funky routing to Hetzner in Germany. Unexplained 20 ms hop.
It means VPS in Amsterdam at the moment instead of running at say 100mbit will run at 250mbit. If the tier is at 300mbit it will run at 750mbit
A change of tier on the network is an upgrade or downgrade.
Will update my signature when I am on a big screen because I am old.
At least it's not 40ms eh!
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@sshbox said:
I don't see a knob to turn that specifies network bandwidth. Are network performance levels supposed to correlate with network bandwidth?
All in all I think your 2.5x promotion is confusing.
How is life of service defined? Will VPS stops/suspends affect eligibility?
Ok I will try to do better next time sorry.
I really struggle to explain the network tiers because people constantly want absolute numbers and that's not how it works.
If low is currently 50mbit and that is Equal to 1 or 100% then 2.5 is 250% or 150mbit, but the raw mbit number is fluid and based on the tier/priority you are paying for.
You have low medium and high tiers on the network that is your knob to turn.
I will get it better documented with examples.
The life of the service is the life of the service, if it exists you are paying for it, up down or suspended, when it no longer exists the life of the service of that VPS ends
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Honestly network performance tiers are really confusing. I am not using network actively, but in my short tests there was virtually no difference between lowest and highest tiers.
My VPS in France rarely goes beyond 5-6mbit even in "high performance" mode, and it's around the same in "low performance". PL VPS does about 40mbit in both modes as well.
I don't ask for more bandwith or anything like that. It's just some sort of clarification what those tiers even mean should be helpful.
@Scioner said:
Honestly network performance tiers are really confusing. I am not using network actively, but in my short tests there was virtually no difference between lowest and highest tiers.
My VPS in France rarely goes beyond 5-6mbit even in "high performance" mode, and it's around the same in "low performance". PL VPS does about 40mbit in both modes as well.
I don't ask for more bandwith or anything like that. It's just some sort of clarification what those tiers even mean should be helpful.
Yeah I think it's a fair comment, I will have a think about it we might just have to set numbers and limits it's a constant source of confusion.
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@Scioner said:
Honestly network performance tiers are really confusing. I am not using network actively, but in my short tests there was virtually no difference between lowest and highest tiers.
My VPS in France rarely goes beyond 5-6mbit even in "high performance" mode, and it's around the same in "low performance". PL VPS does about 40mbit in both modes as well.
I don't ask for more bandwith or anything like that. It's just some sort of clarification what those tiers even mean should be helpful.
Yeah I think it's a fair comment, I will have a think about it we might just have to set numbers and limits it's a constant source of confusion.
To be a bit more clear - I do understand what tiers is some sort of scale for dynamic value, which is based on current capabilities. But having no difference after switching tiers is really confusing.
Like, yeah, my virtual number somewhere got bigger, that's probably good. But I don't see any changes, so why should I pay more.
@Scioner said:
Honestly network performance tiers are really confusing. I am not using network actively, but in my short tests there was virtually no difference between lowest and highest tiers.
My VPS in France rarely goes beyond 5-6mbit even in "high performance" mode, and it's around the same in "low performance". PL VPS does about 40mbit in both modes as well.
I don't ask for more bandwith or anything like that. It's just some sort of clarification what those tiers even mean should be helpful.
Yeah I think it's a fair comment, I will have a think about it we might just have to set numbers and limits it's a constant source of confusion.
To be a bit more clear - I do understand what tiers is some sort of scale for dynamic value, which is based on current capabilities. But having no difference after switching tiers is really confusing.
Like, yeah, my virtual number somewhere got bigger, that's probably good. But I don't see any changes, so why should I pay more.
I assume it's a priority thing. As the machine loads up you'd see more difference.
@Scioner said:
Honestly network performance tiers are really confusing. I am not using network actively, but in my short tests there was virtually no difference between lowest and highest tiers.
My VPS in France rarely goes beyond 5-6mbit even in "high performance" mode, and it's around the same in "low performance". PL VPS does about 40mbit in both modes as well.
I don't ask for more bandwith or anything like that. It's just some sort of clarification what those tiers even mean should be helpful.
Yeah I think it's a fair comment, I will have a think about it we might just have to set numbers and limits it's a constant source of confusion.
To be a bit more clear - I do understand what tiers is some sort of scale for dynamic value, which is based on current capabilities. But having no difference after switching tiers is really confusing.
Like, yeah, my virtual number somewhere got bigger, that's probably good. But I don't see any changes, so why should I pay more.
Yep it's a combination of perceptions, lack of visibility and understanding and maybe some backend issues I will check.
Right now under no contention even someone on low tier can use the full link speed if it's available, if someone on medium tier then needs bandwidth they will get a higher priority and same with high and medium.
There is a check and balance every 15 minutes and an automatic adjustment to ensure no one person can hig the link and to make sure everyone gets as much as possible.
While it was well intentioned it's confusing and probably just to messy for understanding as an end user.
The issue is we have different speeds in different locations at the Hypervisors so setting a simple limit is going to be rough.
I will give this some thought over the next few days, we might just have to do 10, 50 and 100 Mbit and be done with it.
I will let it stew in my head.
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@Scioner said:
Honestly network performance tiers are really confusing. I am not using network actively, but in my short tests there was virtually no difference between lowest and highest tiers.
My VPS in France rarely goes beyond 5-6mbit even in "high performance" mode, and it's around the same in "low performance". PL VPS does about 40mbit in both modes as well.
I don't ask for more bandwith or anything like that. It's just some sort of clarification what those tiers even mean should be helpful.
Yeah I think it's a fair comment, I will have a think about it we might just have to set numbers and limits it's a constant source of confusion.
To be a bit more clear - I do understand what tiers is some sort of scale for dynamic value, which is based on current capabilities. But having no difference after switching tiers is really confusing.
Like, yeah, my virtual number somewhere got bigger, that's probably good. But I don't see any changes, so why should I pay more.
I assume it's a priority thing. As the machine loads up you'd see more difference.
Yep this is the simple version.
But honestly I am getting worn down with ticket after ticket with people wanting numbers, it's my own fault really I have done a shit job of setting expectations.
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@Scioner said:
Honestly network performance tiers are really confusing. I am not using network actively, but in my short tests there was virtually no difference between lowest and highest tiers.
My VPS in France rarely goes beyond 5-6mbit even in "high performance" mode, and it's around the same in "low performance". PL VPS does about 40mbit in both modes as well.
I don't ask for more bandwith or anything like that. It's just some sort of clarification what those tiers even mean should be helpful.
Yeah I think it's a fair comment, I will have a think about it we might just have to set numbers and limits it's a constant source of confusion.
To be a bit more clear - I do understand what tiers is some sort of scale for dynamic value, which is based on current capabilities. But having no difference after switching tiers is really confusing.
Like, yeah, my virtual number somewhere got bigger, that's probably good. But I don't see any changes, so why should I pay more.
Yep it's a combination of perceptions, lack of visibility and understanding and maybe some backend issues I will check.
Right now under no contention even someone on low tier can use the full link speed if it's available, if someone on medium tier then needs bandwidth they will get a higher priority and same with high and medium.
There is a check and balance every 15 minutes and an automatic adjustment to ensure no one person can hig the link and to make sure everyone gets as much as possible.
While it was well intentioned it's confusing and probably just to messy for understanding as an end user.
The issue is we have different speeds in different locations at the Hypervisors so setting a simple limit is going to be rough.
I will give this some thought over the next few days, we might just have to do 10, 50 and 100 Mbit and be done with it.
I will let it stew in my head.
Not sure if it's a good idea, but maybe some sort of dynamic description on the instance and upgrade/downgrade screens would be sufficient? Like "under current load share of tier N is up to 5/10/20/90% of total bandwith". With "current" somehow emphasized.
It clears both confusions - why is my speed high on low tier, and what change would bring me stepping tier up (or down).
@Scioner said: It clears both confusions - why is my speed high on low tier, and what change would bring me stepping tier up (or down).
No, that's even worse, because people don't understand how numbers work. Availability does not equal guarantee unless you pay for it, even bursting. That's specifically why Ant is checking every 15 minutes.
"Hey, fucko- you're dragging everybody down" only works if they have enough funds/tokens to make them pay for it."
"It's a hard life- to be a stick insect." - Karl Pilkington
You and your colleague have done / are doing a great job, really!
To celebrate TierHive's new tenth location I added $10 to my account and received $11.00 because of the 10% bonus sale.. Probably will last nearly forever!
I I understand correctly, the speed issues discussed above might be vastly simplified by describing the 'Performance Tiers" as "priority when there is contention." When there is no contention, everyone gets the maximum.
Additionally, you could state the instance's "Base Speed." Then factors like 2.5 x base speed are clear.
@AnthonySmith said:
we have different speeds in different locations at the Hypervisors
Perhaps describing the "Performance Tiers" and listing the base speeds somehow might be integrated into the VPS creation page? Someone who wants to maximize speed then easily could select a location with high base speed.
I continue to wish TierHive good luck and amazing progress!
Maybe we just give you xxx Mbit and make that a global cap.
So for example 0.000005 per Mbit burst per hour with a maximum.
You can then allocate Mbit /s to your VPS.
1 Mbit x 250 VPS or 250Mbit to 1 VPS
Idk, I will come up with a bigger list of options including doing nothing but being more transparent, and ask for input after I check feasibility.
It's in the multiple tickets per day realm now so something is obviously needed.
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They're just trying to find some simple, if morally unethical way to fuck you. Block all third world countries and be done with it. Doubly so if they're getting free service from Google, Microsoft, et al.
"It's a hard life- to be a stick insect." - Karl Pilkington
@WSS said:
They're just trying to find some simple, if morally unethical way to fuck you. Block all third world countries and be done with it. Doubly so if they're getting free service from Google, Microsoft, et al.
So... just block India?
While I dont support what WSS says, I do believe you should consider tracking metrics of which country people are opening more support request, what are the request about and build a dynamic FAQ from that.
I speak fluent sarcasm and broken logic. | I would agree with you, but thæn we’d both be wrong.
This is what we are going to start doing; it might not be right for every circumstance, but this feels the most complete way of doing things that fits what we already have without massive rewrites.
This will be documented, but this is while it's fresh in my head. Ignore the specific speed numbers below; they are just examples.
Network tiers will start to show the actual speed limits; we have just set arbitrary speeds so people know what they are getting in advance.
Every tier will get a 100% burst for 10 seconds, so if you have 50 Mbps, you can actually do 100 Mbps for 10 seconds.
Every location will show its specific speeds, so in Singapore, low might be say 5 Mbps while in France, low will be 20 Mbps.
At a per location basis your total traffic on the bridge will be tracked, and we are going to set a min/max 95th percentile figure per location, which will be published.
If the min is 10 Mbps and the max is 100 Mbps and you hit 100 Mbps on average for 1 full hour, the bridge will be throttled to 90mbit if you then hit 90mbit for the next hour on average, you will be throttled to 80mbit and so on right down to 10mbit, if you are under the figure then you go back up 10mbit per hour until the limit is removed entirley.
What I have observed this morning and what the past data shows is that about 5% of the users use about 95% of the available links, and our backend is doing what it should do but they just keep spinning up more and more VPS to spread it out so the issue needs to be dealt with at a bridge interface level, which we can do as we give each customer their own bridge.
The chances of any legitimate/suitable TierHive use hiting 100Mbit 24x7 is 0, if you need that its already the wrong service so based on the data available, this change will actually impact about 5% of customers in reality, while restoring better speeds to 95% in some regions.
The changes from outside are actually pretty minimal its just 1 extra table to know what and if you are limited and we already capture the traffic data we need and we just need to adapt our current QOS system to target the bridges instead of the individual VPS so this has already started happening. It will be pushed into production over the weekend, hopefully.
This way if you abuse the unmetered traffic with 300mbit constantly from 1 VPS or 3mbit from 100 VPS you will be gradually limited 10mbit at a time on a per-location basis instead of a per-VPS basis, and it self relaxes 10mbit at a time.
We will tweak the numbers until we find the right balance.
Hopefully that makes sense and will bring some clarity to the UI.
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All I ask is that the changes are communicated to customers and current limits are show in the VPS dashboard.
I was very annoyed when my VPS hit the (secret) CPU limit and I wasn't told about it. All I could see was that steal was 50-75%.
Is there a reason why CPU limits cannot be dynamically applied like the network shaping? I'm still a bit miffed about having to had to reboot my VPS to clear the CPU limiters.
For the record, I am not a heavy CPU user nor do I plan to be. I just happened to do some CPU heavy stuff during setup and testing of my first VPS.
actual network tiers shown by Mbps now on the vps creation page and on the upgrade / downgrade tab on the vps management page.
Sadly this has meant we have had to fix speeds per tier instead of having them dynamically shift but I have increased the burst duration to compensate to some degree.
We are not going to start enforcement until the weekend, that part is still work in progress.
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@sshbox said:
All I ask is that the changes are communicated to customers and current limits are show in the VPS dashboard.
I was very annoyed when my VPS hit the (secret) CPU limit and I wasn't told about it. All I could see was that steal was 50-75%.
Is there a reason why CPU limits cannot be dynamically applied like the network shaping? I'm still a bit miffed about having to had to reboot my VPS to clear the CPU limiters.
For the record, I am not a heavy CPU user nor do I plan to be. I just happened to do some CPU heavy stuff during setup and testing of my first VPS.
I just communicated it.
Honestly, if you get annoyed with TierHive... dont use it, its not the right product for you, sorry if that sounds harsh but you obviously missed the point.
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Please Anthony, I am not trying to annoy you, and I ask this with only love in my heart: what is the point?
Have you considered that perhaps the point was not communicated clearly and expectations weren't set properly at the beginning?
To quote your own web copy:
"Hourly VPS hosting that scales with you ... You just do what you do, let us worry about the rest."
I know that the large print giveth and the small print taketh away, but surely your front page could also offer some guidance on acceptable use and limits? A naïve user will go that sounds great, select all high priority on all tier, figure they are all set and go to town. This (obviously in hindsight) is not the intended use, but things that are obvious to you are not obvious to everyone.
I've had the (not so) great fortune of having to deal with the unwashed masses in a lot of B2C services and it really helps to spell out the obvious.
In any case, please don't take this too hard, these are just my opinions, and we all have plenty of those to go around. Cheers, mate.
Logged in -> add tokens -> select paypal -> do paypal thing -> logged out of TH & need to log in again
Seems to have worked fine but I don't get why it logged me out?
First report of that we have had, yes, that's annoying, I will have it tested and report it, I don't dare touch the billing side I will come back to you on that.
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@AnthonySmith said:
Also, as Amsterdam is a milestone location for TierHive, the burst multiplier is on 2.5x for the network tier you pick, any VPS created in Amsterdam in the next week will have the 2.5x network speed multiplier for the life of that service (Does not apply to future upgrades or downgrades)
Does "does not apply to future upgrades or downgrades" mean that any upgrade/downgrade will remove the multiplier? Or just network tier upgrades/downgrades?
@AnthonySmith said:
[I]n the sandpit version, we already charge 50% less for powered-off virtual servers. That will make it into live fairly soon [...].
Hit the "Complete Purchase" button. The payment page seemed instantly replaced by the TierHive login page. When I logged in again, 11 tokens had been added -- the ten I bought plus the 10% bonus, in my case, one token.
@Scioner said:
Just to make sure, is 2.5x still valid after all those changes?
It was 40mbit before, and it's still 40mbit now for my NL VPS. I don't' particularly need more, and even that is a lot more than I expect.
But I love freebies.
Yep still valid
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@AnthonySmith said:
Also, as Amsterdam is a milestone location for TierHive, the burst multiplier is on 2.5x for the network tier you pick, any VPS created in Amsterdam in the next week will have the 2.5x network speed multiplier for the life of that service (Does not apply to future upgrades or downgrades)
Does "does not apply to future upgrades or downgrades" mean that any upgrade/downgrade will remove the multiplier? Or just network tier upgrades/downgrades?
@AnthonySmith said:
[I]n the sandpit version, we already charge 50% less for powered-off virtual servers. That will make it into live fairly soon [...].
Has this made it into live by now?
Only network tier changes will change it.
It should have been in about 3 weeks ago but for now good reason we paired it with the static hosting release because we assumed that would be in next.
We messed up and it failed testing which is why the shut downs being 50% are not in, but the audit passed on the 3rd attempt today, it's been stressful.
I still want to do a fresh set of BUFH testing over the weekend and I will try and release it Monday.
If I understand correctly it will be live at the same time as the static hosting.
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Hit the "Complete Purchase" button. The payment page seemed instantly replaced by the TierHive login page. When I logged in again, 11 tokens had been added -- the ten I bought plus the 10% bonus, in my case, one token.
Yep verified, found the case, only impacting PayPal, there was an update from Fastspring on the 16th May I suspect that caused it, we will try to unpick it in the coming week.
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@teamacc said:
When I click the "features" link in the footer of the page, it scrolls up, but not enough. Seems like the sticky header bar is in the way.
Thanks 👍 I will have a look, probably my fault.
I am doing some site updates next week to add the network speeds in for the locations and a dedicated what is TierHive and what it's not page is being added.
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I have to say it's even more confusing now (it will not stop me from top up, as it's most interesting vps concept i've seen ever).
I do understand "alpha" state of the project. I do understand bandwith can vary, and it's widely depends. But having those numbers back to back is even more confusing than it was before imo.
@Scioner said:
I have to say it's even more confusing now (it will not stop me from top up, as it's most interesting vps concept i've seen ever).
I do understand "alpha" state of the project. I do understand bandwith can vary, and it's widely depends. But having those numbers back to back is even more confusing than it was before imo.
I can't see those images because Imgur is blocked and I am on my phone.
I will have a look tomorrow when I am on the battle station again, not sure how knowing the speed Vs not knowing the speed is more confusing though, maybe it will make sense when I can see your pics
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@Scioner said:
I have to say it's even more confusing now (it will not stop me from top up, as it's most interesting vps concept i've seen ever).
I do understand "alpha" state of the project. I do understand bandwith can vary, and it's widely depends. But having those numbers back to back is even more confusing than it was before imo.
I can't see those images because Imgur is blocked and I am on my phone.
I will have a look tomorrow when I am on the battle station again, not sure how knowing the speed Vs not knowing the speed is more confusing though, maybe it will make sense when I can see your pics
Network Bandwith: 100 Mbps (middle tier for FR)
Test Result (ookla): 5.33 Mbps
It is confusing, no matter how you see it. Again, I neither need, nor want more. It's more than enough for $1.5/y vps. But 20x gap between selected and tested numbers is kinda off.
@Scioner said:
I have to say it's even more confusing now (it will not stop me from top up, as it's most interesting vps concept i've seen ever).
I do understand "alpha" state of the project. I do understand bandwith can vary, and it's widely depends. But having those numbers back to back is even more confusing than it was before imo.
I can't see those images because Imgur is blocked and I am on my phone.
I will have a look tomorrow when I am on the battle station again, not sure how knowing the speed Vs not knowing the speed is more confusing though, maybe it will make sense when I can see your pics
Network Bandwith: 100 Mbps (middle tier for FR)
Test Result (ookla): 5.33 Mbps
It is confusing, no matter how you see it. Again, I neither need, nor want more. It's more than enough for $1.5/y vps. But 20x gap between selected and tested numbers is kinda off.
yeah thats pretty bad, pop a ticket in as I am blind right now, I will do some digging.
edit: nevermind.. yeah france is suffering, we will get the limiting in place asap over the weekend to claw back some bandwdith.
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What do your tears taste like? Are they salty, or more watery? Do you want something more when you give what you're offering other than a token of support? What would you expect that to feel like?
"It's a hard life- to be a stick insect." - Karl Pilkington
I was going to add some credit to my account, but it's wanting to charge me EUR instead of USD, and add 21% VAT, even though I'm not in Europe. Is this normal?
@david3 said:
I was going to add some credit to my account, but it's wanting to charge me EUR instead of USD, and add 21% VAT, even though I'm not in Europe. Is this normal?
is your IP in Europe?
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@david3 said:
I was going to add some credit to my account, but it's wanting to charge me EUR instead of USD, and add 21% VAT, even though I'm not in Europe. Is this normal?
is your IP in Europe?
No, it's in the Philippines. But I noticed there was a location selector in the upper right corner, and I was able to change it from Europe to the Philippines. Then, it charged me in USD with the local 12% VAT rate. I paid with paypal, and it also logged me out of tierhive after I completed the payment, like the other guy reported earlier.
I think I know what happened. I'm normally connected to a vpn in Hong Kong, but I have tierhive.com set to bypass the vpn, so there's no issues. But I think the payment stuff pulls up fastspring also, so it probably detected the vpn. Though it set my location to the Netherlands instead of Hong Kong.
@david3 said:
I think I know what happened. I'm normally connected to a vpn in Hong Kong, but I have tierhive.com set to bypass the vpn, so there's no issues. But I think the payment stuff pulls up fastspring also, so it probably detected the vpn. Though it set my location to the Netherlands instead of Hong Kong.
yep that will be it.
I know about the PayPal logout issue. Hopefully, that will be fixed early next week. They changed some stuff upstream that handles the return differently on the return to the merchant.
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Comments
Would love to see TierHive open up in Indonesia — Jakarta, Batam, Bogor, Surabaya would be awesome spots. Totally fine if you need to add a multiplier on the tokens, that’s fair.
A little benchmarking with fio shows the HDDs(Vint Hill) running at 99/100 IOPS read/write. The root disk(Fast NVME) in Low IOPS mode clocks in at 55/57 IOPS read/write.
In this situation, moving the entire OS to the HDD may actually make the VPS disk IOPS ~100% faster, for an additional 0.000004 tokens/hr(for 1GB of HDD). No practical use perhaps, but it was a fun experiment nonetheless.
The plan is to be everywhere, naturally we are focusing on the cheaper locations first but if anyone has any recommendations on hosts in other locations I am keeping a list locally.
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Hmm it's not quite that simple, you can't measure the iops that your VPS needs to exist in order to run the benchmark to begin with.
The hdd is not also running the os and also does not get the burstable IO that the main disk does.
Although that said running on low priority mode in most cases will cap you at around 200 iops currently on an active node.
Also, you can change the priority of the nvme unlike the HDD.
But I see what you mean either way, on the surface the numbers are odd.
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Amsterdam is live
Edit: Forgot to say, IPv6 and HAProxy are also available, and Amsterdam has a 2.5 multiplier on network speed.
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What does network speed multiplier in AMS mean?
How is life of service defined?
What qualifies as an upgrade or downgrade?
P.S. You need to update your sig.
P.P.S Funky routing to Hetzner in Germany. Unexplained 20 ms hop.
It means VPS in Amsterdam at the moment instead of running at say 100mbit will run at 250mbit. If the tier is at 300mbit it will run at 750mbit
A change of tier on the network is an upgrade or downgrade.
Will update my signature when I am on a big screen because I am old.
At least it's not 40ms eh!
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I don't see a knob to turn that specifies network bandwidth. Are network performance levels supposed to correlate with network bandwidth?
All in all I think your 2.5x promotion is confusing.
How is life of service defined? Will VPS stops/suspends affect eligibility?
I got this:
Yes
OK
No
(I think)
PS Sorry - I've been drinking.
Ok I will try to do better next time sorry.
I really struggle to explain the network tiers because people constantly want absolute numbers and that's not how it works.
If low is currently 50mbit and that is Equal to 1 or 100% then 2.5 is 250% or 150mbit, but the raw mbit number is fluid and based on the tier/priority you are paying for.
You have low medium and high tiers on the network that is your knob to turn.
I will get it better documented with examples.
The life of the service is the life of the service, if it exists you are paying for it, up down or suspended, when it no longer exists the life of the service of that VPS ends
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Honestly network performance tiers are really confusing. I am not using network actively, but in my short tests there was virtually no difference between lowest and highest tiers.
My VPS in France rarely goes beyond 5-6mbit even in "high performance" mode, and it's around the same in "low performance". PL VPS does about 40mbit in both modes as well.
I don't ask for more bandwith or anything like that. It's just some sort of clarification what those tiers even mean should be helpful.
Yeah I think it's a fair comment, I will have a think about it we might just have to set numbers and limits it's a constant source of confusion.
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To be a bit more clear - I do understand what tiers is some sort of scale for dynamic value, which is based on current capabilities. But having no difference after switching tiers is really confusing.
Like, yeah, my virtual number somewhere got bigger, that's probably good. But I don't see any changes, so why should I pay more.
I assume it's a priority thing. As the machine loads up you'd see more difference.
Yep it's a combination of perceptions, lack of visibility and understanding and maybe some backend issues I will check.
Right now under no contention even someone on low tier can use the full link speed if it's available, if someone on medium tier then needs bandwidth they will get a higher priority and same with high and medium.
There is a check and balance every 15 minutes and an automatic adjustment to ensure no one person can hig the link and to make sure everyone gets as much as possible.
While it was well intentioned it's confusing and probably just to messy for understanding as an end user.
The issue is we have different speeds in different locations at the Hypervisors so setting a simple limit is going to be rough.
I will give this some thought over the next few days, we might just have to do 10, 50 and 100 Mbit and be done with it.
I will let it stew in my head.
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Yep this is the simple version.
But honestly I am getting worn down with ticket after ticket with people wanting numbers, it's my own fault really I have done a shit job of setting expectations.
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Not sure if it's a good idea, but maybe some sort of dynamic description on the instance and upgrade/downgrade screens would be sufficient? Like "under current load share of tier N is up to 5/10/20/90% of total bandwith". With "current" somehow emphasized.
It clears both confusions - why is my speed high on low tier, and what change would bring me stepping tier up (or down).
No, that's even worse, because people don't understand how numbers work. Availability does not equal guarantee unless you pay for it, even bursting. That's specifically why Ant is checking every 15 minutes.
"Hey, fucko- you're dragging everybody down" only works if they have enough funds/tokens to make them pay for it."
"It's a hard life- to be a stick insect." - Karl Pilkington
You and your colleague have done / are doing a great job, really!
To celebrate TierHive's new tenth location I added $10 to my account and received $11.00 because of the 10% bonus sale.. Probably will last nearly forever!
I I understand correctly, the speed issues discussed above might be vastly simplified by describing the 'Performance Tiers" as "priority when there is contention." When there is no contention, everyone gets the maximum.
Additionally, you could state the instance's "Base Speed." Then factors like 2.5 x base speed are clear.
Perhaps describing the "Performance Tiers" and listing the base speeds somehow might be integrated into the VPS creation page? Someone who wants to maximize speed then easily could select a location with high base speed.
I continue to wish TierHive good luck and amazing progress!
Maybe we just give you xxx Mbit and make that a global cap.
So for example 0.000005 per Mbit burst per hour with a maximum.
You can then allocate Mbit /s to your VPS.
1 Mbit x 250 VPS or 250Mbit to 1 VPS
Idk, I will come up with a bigger list of options including doing nothing but being more transparent, and ask for input after I check feasibility.
It's in the multiple tickets per day realm now so something is obviously needed.
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FAQ in the knowledge base. Check box "I have read the FAQ" before being able to create a ticket.
Lock everyone to 56k. If you can send Hayes commands, it gets doubled to 128k.
"It's a hard life- to be a stick insect." - Karl Pilkington
They're just trying to find some simple, if morally unethical way to fuck you. Block all third world countries and be done with it. Doubly so if they're getting free service from Google, Microsoft, et al.
"It's a hard life- to be a stick insect." - Karl Pilkington
So... just block India?
While I dont support what WSS says, I do believe you should consider tracking metrics of which country people are opening more support request, what are the request about and build a dynamic FAQ from that.
Perhaps it's a language thing. English is my first language and I had no problem understanding. Don't be too hard on yourself.
Keith
ok so we had a chat.
This is what we are going to start doing; it might not be right for every circumstance, but this feels the most complete way of doing things that fits what we already have without massive rewrites.
This will be documented, but this is while it's fresh in my head. Ignore the specific speed numbers below; they are just examples.
What I have observed this morning and what the past data shows is that about 5% of the users use about 95% of the available links, and our backend is doing what it should do but they just keep spinning up more and more VPS to spread it out so the issue needs to be dealt with at a bridge interface level, which we can do as we give each customer their own bridge.
The chances of any legitimate/suitable TierHive use hiting 100Mbit 24x7 is 0, if you need that its already the wrong service so based on the data available, this change will actually impact about 5% of customers in reality, while restoring better speeds to 95% in some regions.
The changes from outside are actually pretty minimal its just 1 extra table to know what and if you are limited and we already capture the traffic data we need and we just need to adapt our current QOS system to target the bridges instead of the individual VPS so this has already started happening. It will be pushed into production over the weekend, hopefully.
This way if you abuse the unmetered traffic with 300mbit constantly from 1 VPS or 3mbit from 100 VPS you will be gradually limited 10mbit at a time on a per-location basis instead of a per-VPS basis, and it self relaxes 10mbit at a time.
We will tweak the numbers until we find the right balance.
Hopefully that makes sense and will bring some clarity to the UI.
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All I ask is that the changes are communicated to customers and current limits are show in the VPS dashboard.
I was very annoyed when my VPS hit the (secret) CPU limit and I wasn't told about it. All I could see was that steal was 50-75%.
Is there a reason why CPU limits cannot be dynamically applied like the network shaping? I'm still a bit miffed about having to had to reboot my VPS to clear the CPU limiters.
For the record, I am not a heavy CPU user nor do I plan to be. I just happened to do some CPU heavy stuff during setup and testing of my first VPS.
actual network tiers shown by Mbps now on the vps creation page and on the upgrade / downgrade tab on the vps management page.
Sadly this has meant we have had to fix speeds per tier instead of having them dynamically shift but I have increased the burst duration to compensate to some degree.
We are not going to start enforcement until the weekend, that part is still work in progress.
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I just communicated it.
Honestly, if you get annoyed with TierHive... dont use it, its not the right product for you, sorry if that sounds harsh but you obviously missed the point.
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I don't think all customers religiously frequent LES. Anyways, please also show current limits on the dashboard.
Please Anthony, I am not trying to annoy you, and I ask this with only love in my heart: what is the point?
Have you considered that perhaps the point was not communicated clearly and expectations weren't set properly at the beginning?
To quote your own web copy:
"Hourly VPS hosting that scales with you ... You just do what you do, let us worry about the rest."
I know that the large print giveth and the small print taketh away, but surely your front page could also offer some guidance on acceptable use and limits? A naïve user will go that sounds great, select all high priority on all tier, figure they are all set and go to town. This (obviously in hindsight) is not the intended use, but things that are obvious to you are not obvious to everyone.
I've had the (not so) great fortune of having to deal with the unwashed masses in a lot of B2C services and it really helps to spell out the obvious.
In any case, please don't take this too hard, these are just my opinions, and we all have plenty of those to go around. Cheers, mate.
@AnthonySmith the paypal flow is a bit weird.
Logged in -> add tokens -> select paypal -> do paypal thing -> logged out of TH & need to log in again
Seems to have worked fine but I don't get why it logged me out?
First report of that we have had, yes, that's annoying, I will have it tested and report it, I don't dare touch the billing side
I will come back to you on that.
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Just to make sure, is 2.5x still valid after all those changes?
It was 40mbit before, and it's still 40mbit now for my NL VPS. I don't' particularly need more, and even that is a lot more than I expect.
But I love freebies.
Does "does not apply to future upgrades or downgrades" mean that any upgrade/downgrade will remove the multiplier? Or just network tier upgrades/downgrades?
Has this made it into live by now?
+1
Hit the "Complete Purchase" button. The payment page seemed instantly replaced by the TierHive login page. When I logged in again, 11 tokens had been added -- the ten I bought plus the 10% bonus, in my case, one token.
Yep still valid
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When I click the "features" link in the footer of the page, it scrolls up, but not enough. Seems like the sticky header bar is in the way.
Hey teamacc. You're a dick. (c) Jon Biloh, 2020.
Only network tier changes will change it.
It should have been in about 3 weeks ago but for now good reason we paired it with the static hosting release because we assumed that would be in next.
We messed up and it failed testing which is why the shut downs being 50% are not in, but the audit passed on the 3rd attempt today, it's been stressful.
I still want to do a fresh set of BUFH testing over the weekend and I will try and release it Monday.
If I understand correctly it will be live at the same time as the static hosting.
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Yep verified, found the case, only impacting PayPal, there was an update from Fastspring on the 16th May I suspect that caused it, we will try to unpick it in the coming week.
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Thanks 👍 I will have a look, probably my fault.
I am doing some site updates next week to add the network speeds in for the locations and a dedicated what is TierHive and what it's not page is being added.
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I have to say it's even more confusing now (it will not stop me from top up, as it's most interesting vps concept i've seen ever).
I do understand "alpha" state of the project. I do understand bandwith can vary, and it's widely depends. But having those numbers back to back is even more confusing than it was before imo.
I can't see those images because Imgur is blocked and I am on my phone.
I will have a look tomorrow when I am on the battle station again, not sure how knowing the speed Vs not knowing the speed is more confusing though, maybe it will make sense when I can see your pics
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Network Bandwith: 100 Mbps (middle tier for FR)
Test Result (ookla): 5.33 Mbps
It is confusing, no matter how you see it. Again, I neither need, nor want more. It's more than enough for $1.5/y vps. But 20x gap between selected and tested numbers is kinda off.
yeah thats pretty bad, pop a ticket in as I am blind right now, I will do some digging.
edit: nevermind.. yeah france is suffering, we will get the limiting in place asap over the weekend to claw back some bandwdith.
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What do your tears taste like? Are they salty, or more watery? Do you want something more when you give what you're offering other than a token of support? What would you expect that to feel like?
"It's a hard life- to be a stick insect." - Karl Pilkington
I was going to add some credit to my account, but it's wanting to charge me EUR instead of USD, and add 21% VAT, even though I'm not in Europe. Is this normal?
is your IP in Europe?
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No, it's in the Philippines. But I noticed there was a location selector in the upper right corner, and I was able to change it from Europe to the Philippines. Then, it charged me in USD with the local 12% VAT rate. I paid with paypal, and it also logged me out of tierhive after I completed the payment, like the other guy reported earlier.
I think I know what happened. I'm normally connected to a vpn in Hong Kong, but I have tierhive.com set to bypass the vpn, so there's no issues. But I think the payment stuff pulls up fastspring also, so it probably detected the vpn. Though it set my location to the Netherlands instead of Hong Kong.
yep that will be it.
I know about the PayPal logout issue. Hopefully, that will be fixed early next week. They changed some stuff upstream that handles the return differently on the return to the merchant.
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