@AnthonySmith said:
Wow, that was fast. Well, hopefully this is a good example of the new powers the community has to manage the forum collectively, if nothing else.
Host effectively removed by downvotes not by staff.
I'm assuming that's some aggregate? That could turn- nasty.
They're just forcing KYC as most people will obviously not go through it. It's not about fake data or bullshit regulations. It's the easiest excuse to steal people's money out of dispute windows.
They regretted their 3-year deals for like 10€ and want those resources back. They "accidentally" terminated my VPS and offered me a full refund. It just doesn't make any sense.
Thank god I chose the refund. Was not going to use that VPS anyways, just crap Hetzner tunnel.
@zgato said: @AnthonySmith now that the provider is banned, shouldn't the banner ads be gone as well?
Well new system and a new system I did not anticipate this happening all at once so there is no precedent.
I have reached out directly, the subscription has already been cancelled but the advert was paid for in advance.
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@zgato said: @AnthonySmith now that the provider is banned, shouldn't the banner ads be gone as well?
Well new system and a new system I did not anticipate this happening all at once so there is no precedent.
I have reached out directly, the subscription has already been cancelled but the advert was paid for in advance.
Yeah I did not mean it in a bad way, sorry of it sounded like that
Thnx!
No problem; it is a policy gap, and I need to address it.
The irony is not lost on me given the subject matter here; it would be a bit shit of me not to deliver the paid-for service regardless of the account status change.
Similarly, I am also happy to just refund; it's no problem.
The drama-free route.
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@Dasabo said: why you are having such trouble completing a simple KYC process that requires nothing more than a valid ID document and a live photo; I truly cannot fathom it,
I don't have a service with you and I'm not normally against KYC if necessary on sign-up with a reputable company, but I can understand if someone has signed up and been with you a while without causing issues to suddenly be told that you must provide KYC within 10 days or you're out.
Why not allow people until the end of the billing period?
Hello, and thank you for your comment.
There are specific security-related reasons why some of our users are currently required to undergo the Enhanced KYC process; I cannot disclose the specific details.
Similarly, refusing to complete the KYC process when requested raises the risk level for us regarding that client compounded by other concerns I cannot disclose. For this reason, we proceed to close the account and terminate the service.
It is not ideal I realize it is a drastic measure, and I acknowledge that we will lose customers but it is the least painful option for us from a security standpoint.
Since arriving in Italy, we have obtained various certifications that allow us to operate in the public sector and sell to public administration bodies; the associated audits are quite rigorous and very strict.
Will you provide prorated refunds (including any applicable transaction fees) for customers who choose not to undergo the Enhanced KYC process?
Hello,
No, as stated in article 14.1 of ToS.
I wonder what happens to people in countries his chosen KYC verifier does not support but who still provided their real info...
@c1vhosting said: We are available to assist those who have lost their services, offering the same resources at the same price.
We have been in business for six years, and you all know that we don't operate that way.
Just send me a private message.
Thank you.
Besides the basement datacenter accusations from back on OGF, I really don't see what's wrong with C1V Hosting. I've had a service with them for a while and never had serious downtime, and both administrative hiccups I ran into (an early invoice due to mixing up monthly and triennial payment, and a suspension due to running a Tor node which was lifted when I explained that it's a middle and not an exit) were dealt with quickly.
I mean they aren't premium but there are plenty of "reputable" hosts I've had worse experiences with.
@c1vhosting said: We are available to assist those who have lost their services, offering the same resources at the same price.
We have been in business for six years, and you all know that we don't operate that way.
Just send me a private message.
Thank you.
Besides the basement datacenter accusations from back on OGF, I really don't see what's wrong with C1V Hosting. I've had a service with them for a while and never had serious downtime, and both administrative hiccups I ran into (an early invoice due to mixing up monthly and triennial payment, and a suspension due to running a Tor node which was lifted when I explained that it's a middle and not an exit) were dealt with quickly.
I mean they aren't premium but there are plenty of "reputable" hosts I've had worse experiences with.
@zgato said:
They're just forcing KYC as most people will obviously not go through it. It's not about fake data or bullshit regulations. It's the easiest excuse to steal people's money out of dispute windows.
They regretted their 3-year deals for like 10€ and want those resources back. They "accidentally" terminated my VPS and offered me a full refund. It just doesn't make any sense.
Thank god I chose the refund. Was not going to use that VPS anyways, just crap Hetzner tunnel.
I have decided to use my server's resources to their maximum potential until Dasabo terminates my client account.
We did consider the possibility of refunds but decided to stick to our contractual terms because we don't consider ourselves at fault. Why should we be penalized if a user commits fraud or deliberately uses false information to purchase our services?
First of all: I'm one of the users that got the E-Mail to do KYC. I've got fully accurate details in my account when signed up. Why should I (and all others who just filled in correct information) be penalized if a provider suddenly (after taking money) decides to change the way he checks stuff?
Secondly: Only very selected parties are in several countries allowed to ask for a copy with a recognizable picture on their ID. If you want to check it? Come over here and I'll show you my ID. No issue. A copy? You can get one, but without picture or social security number.
Thirdly: You've decided to stick to your terms when people started asking about refunds. Not because you did from the beginning. There have been refunds due to this KYC situation. You know it.
We did consider the possibility of refunds but decided to stick to our contractual terms because we don't consider ourselves at fault. Why should we be penalized if a user commits fraud or deliberately uses false information to purchase our services?
First of all: I'm one of the users that got the E-Mail to do KYC. I've got fully accurate details in my account when signed up. Why should I (and all others who just filled in correct information) be penalized if a provider suddenly (after taking money) decides to change the way he checks stuff?
Secondly: Only very selected parties are in several countries allowed to ask for a copy with a recognizable picture on their ID. If you want to check it? Come over here and I'll show you my ID. No issue. A copy? You can get one, but without picture or social security number.
Thirdly: You've decided to stick to your terms when people started asking about refunds. Not because you did from the beginning. There have been refunds due to this KYC situation. You know it.
Fourthly, he was banned as he received so many downvotes (it's a feature), so he can't reply. I suggest emailing directly or opening a ticket.
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We did consider the possibility of refunds but decided to stick to our contractual terms because we don't consider ourselves at fault. Why should we be penalized if a user commits fraud or deliberately uses false information to purchase our services?
First of all: I'm one of the users that got the E-Mail to do KYC. I've got fully accurate details in my account when signed up. Why should I (and all others who just filled in correct information) be penalized if a provider suddenly (after taking money) decides to change the way he checks stuff?
Secondly: Only very selected parties are in several countries allowed to ask for a copy with a recognizable picture on their ID. If you want to check it? Come over here and I'll show you my ID. No issue. A copy? You can get one, but without picture or social security number.
Thirdly: You've decided to stick to your terms when people started asking about refunds. Not because you did from the beginning. There have been refunds due to this KYC situation. You know it.
Fourthly, he was banned as he received so many downvotes (it's a feature), so he can't reply. I suggest emailing directly or opening a ticket.
It was more meant as reading material for other "victims" - also I know almost for sure that he'll read forums anyway.
I'd just like to say that as I went to clean up the box for such unworldly duties, I noticed I'd setup a logger nearly 2 years ago to document the CPU steal.
The CPU steal for my VM has been at an average of ~20%. For the last 2 years. :O!
Personally I think it was a mistake to ban him, it takes away any opportunity to communicate, VirMach is a rough example.
I think I am going to have to review the system, maybe either increase the threshold or change the action.
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@AnthonySmith said:
Personally I think it was a mistake to ban him, it takes away any opportunity to communicate, VirMach is a rough example.
I think I am going to have to review the system, maybe either increase the threshold or change the action.
It was his communication that got him banned in the first place tho.
Yeah but he was communicating at least, idk maybe I am wrong, it just felt a little sudden and over the top.
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@AnthonySmith said:
Personally I think it was a mistake to ban him, it takes away any opportunity to communicate, VirMach is a rough example.
I think I am going to have to review the system, maybe either increase the threshold or change the action.
If I may say so, I'm inclined to think that letting the angry mob people decide these things isn't necessarily the best approach
In everyday life, an analogy would be letting the neighbors in your street decide whether you go to prison or not
I'm inclined to think that banning a user on a forum should be based on the user's having broken the rules of the forum
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
I'd just like to say that as I went to clean up the box for such unworldly duties, I noticed I'd setup a logger nearly 2 years ago to document the CPU steal.
The CPU steal for my VM has been at an average of ~20%. For the last 2 years. :O!
@AnthonySmith said:
Personally I think it was a mistake to ban him, it takes away any opportunity to communicate, VirMach is a rough example.
I think I am going to have to review the system, maybe either increase the threshold or change the action.
What about have bans for horrible karma be more brief? A 3 day timeout will get the point across.
Yeah that's what I started thinking after this
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@AnthonySmith said:
Personally I think it was a mistake to ban him, it takes away any opportunity to communicate, VirMach is a rough example.
I think I am going to have to review the system, maybe either increase the threshold or change the action.
If I may say so, I'm inclined to think that letting the angry mob people decide these things isn't necessarily the best approach
In everyday life, an analogy would be letting the neighbors in your street decide whether you go to prison or not
I'm inclined to think that banning a user on a forum should be based on the user's having broken the rules of the forum
Those "neighbors" decide based on your statements, so mind what you say and you won't "go to prison". Also, is this "angry mob" in the room with us now?
@angstrom said: If I may say so, I'm inclined to think that letting the angry mob people decide these things isn't necessarily the best approach
Yeah. I don't think all that many old hat are going to like the new generation of users.
@xaoc said:
Those "neighbors" decide based on your statements, so mind what you say and you won't "go to prison". Also, is this "angry mob" in the room with us now?
You know that I'm supposed to be the insufferable cunt, right?
I was going to chime in this exact sentiment. I don't think his actions were ban worthy, and that was never my intent by pointing out what I did. I personally just move on from his services. Perhaps he lacked in communicating what he was planning for KYC going forward, and his actions were a bit harsh and abrupt. It possibly could have been handled a bit better, but again I don't believe he did anything terribly ban worthy.
This discussion certainly generated a lot of comments.
My take is that the problem isn't that KYC is now required, it's that its wasn't required before accepting payment and providing services and it is now required without a simple refund or offboarding mechanism. For providers, if you care about your brand, its probably cheaper in the long run to just provide a refund and move on. If your brand value is $0, then I guess it doesn't matter.
Because I don't know the specifics of the provider's ToS or previous rules, I will stop commenting on this issue beyond this level of detail to prevent conflating multiple topics.
A very interesting comment was this:
@AnthonySmith said:
Recently i used LeaseWeb, they also let you isgn up, start a contract, THEN do KYC, which, if you refuse... sorry no refunds; worse still, they do it via EMAIL!!!! Even worse, their own bloody exchange server sends you an automated warning that you may have sent sensitive information and warns you against it.
@AnthonySmith said:
Personally I think it was a mistake to ban him, it takes away any opportunity to communicate, VirMach is a rough example.
I think I am going to have to review the system, maybe either increase the threshold or change the action.
WADR, it's because he choose to continue engaging instead of thinking, "Mamma mia, I have-a been downvoted! Should-a I check-a my argument, eh?"
I think it's better if someone gets temporary banned, once there's excessive downvote e.g -5, -10, -15, -20, -25 for 24-72 hour depending on their user level
@xaoc said:
I would expect to at least get banned if I was threatening to steal someone's money in like 10 days.
Yeah, I flip between the 2, but I really wonder if taking away someone's ability to respond is really the right move, when stopping them from selling has the desired effect anyway.
We could flip it so that host tags are auto-removed at -10 karma, and a ban does not happen until -50 globally.
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@xaoc said:
I would expect to at least get banned if I was threatening to steal someone's money in like 10 days.
Yeah, I flip between the 2, but I really wonder if taking away someone's ability to respond is really the right move, when stopping them from selling has the desired effect anyway.
We could flip it so that host tags are auto-removed at -10 karma, and a ban does not happen until -50 globally.
A leaky bucket for the negative karma to eventually unban users after they have the time to repent?
@xaoc said:
I would expect to at least get banned if I was threatening to steal someone's money in like 10 days.
Yeah, I flip between the 2, but I really wonder if taking away someone's ability to respond is really the right move, when stopping them from selling has the desired effect anyway.
We could flip it so that host tags are auto-removed at -10 karma, and a ban does not happen until -50 globally.
A leaky bucket for the negative karma to eventually unban users after they have the time to repent?
Thats a solid idea... Thanks!
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@AnthonySmith said: I am not getting into the ins and outs of this specific case, but I think it needs to be said that it is a bit unfair to attack any host for doing KYC, I promise you they are not doing it for fun. There is an ever-evolving shitstorm of nanny-state " protect the children " regulations being completely enforced and pushed on to small businesses within Europe at a rate no one can keep up.
No problem with KYC, as long as they give people who don’t want to go through it a reasonable amount of time to back up their data and provide a refund.
That is completely reasonable to me, unless your TOS stated from the jump that KYC is possible, It should be an option to let one get pro-rated refund on the service they have if they wish to leave because they are not comfortable with KYC. EU is horrendous with this, it's the reason why Europe is falling behind when it comes to innovation, they go out of their way to put door stoppers everywhere.
@PacketraOliver said:
unless your TOS stated from the jump that KYC is possible
Many providers do have "KYC possible" in ToS, but then:
Most customers believe KYC shouldn't be added if the payment was accepted and VPS was created.
Most customers don't read ToS before handing over their $7/year.
Some providers write their ToS in a language that the customer does not read natively, published in a non-textual format that makes it difficult for automated translate software to process.
We accept Karma donations for the last flan. 🍮 affbrr
In Germany we apply Datenschutz. Its a very serious privacy law, that protects citizens. For example: no cameras in public property (even government is restricted!), no public filming. But it also applies to digital products.
I mention this because their brand name is "Dasabo" which is a German phrase. "Das Abo" which means "The Subscription".
Honestly this whole situation makes no sense, and in Germany people would have likely the right to chargeback or file a claim against the company to refund them.
Fun fact: this is a company that had an incident couple years ago, according to another forum, that an employee apparently stole cards from clients and billed them. I don't know the details exactly.
https://extahost.com/
VPS & Dedicated Servers Ashburn, VA - Spokane, WA - Buffalo, NY
So let me get this straight this company out of nowhere, decided to require KYC from its customers, gave them 10 days to complete it, and if they didn't terminated their service and refused to issue a refund?
I seriously hope everyone had backups. This is pretty wild.
And here I was thinking we asked for too much information. We ask for first name, last name, and country. We don't even require an address.
We have always been privacy focused tho. We don't even allow auto reccuring subscriptions and all transactions aren't completed on our site.
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@PacketraOliver said:
unless your TOS stated from the jump that KYC is possible
Many providers do have "KYC possible" in ToS, but then:
Most customers believe KYC shouldn't be added if the payment was accepted and VPS was created.
Most customers don't read ToS before handing over their $7/year.
Some providers write their ToS in a language that the customer does not read natively, published in a non-textual format that makes it difficult for automated translate software to process.
You are right, about the KYC being in the TOS however, All your bulletpoints make sense as well, the TOS is often written in a legal language, but it would still mention at some point "KYC/Know your customer/Information" anything that if you read it sort of hits "we may". It is however correct, I am guilty of not reading TOS everytime, common who does, we all have been guilty of scrolling to the bottom, hit the accept and install Diablo (a)..
@ExtaHost said: Fun fact: this is a company that had an incident couple years ago, according to another forum, that an employee apparently stole cards from clients and billed them. I don't know the details exactly.
s/years/months and he never gave a plausible (imo) explanation though people were refunded appropriately as far as i know.
I ain’t reading all that, but I’m happy for you though. Or sorry that happened.
@ascicode said:
They could answer in own thread only.
This might not be a bad idea.
Get bad karma and you will only be able to answer in your own thread, not start new ones and not reply in others. If your karma does not approve in a certain timespan, you will get banned. This would allow for a discussion to be held and it would give the user a possibility to see the errors of his way and possibly change and repent.
I like the "leaky bucket" idea too. Maybe combined with a three strike rule so that if you hit bad karma three times, the bucket stops leaking and you are permanently out.
Comments
I'm assuming that's some aggregate? That could turn- nasty.
And I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
They're just forcing KYC as most people will obviously not go through it. It's not about fake data or bullshit regulations. It's the easiest excuse to steal people's money out of dispute windows.
They regretted their 3-year deals for like 10€ and want those resources back. They "accidentally" terminated my VPS and offered me a full refund. It just doesn't make any sense.
Thank god I chose the refund. Was not going to use that VPS anyways, just crap Hetzner tunnel.
We are available to assist those who have lost their services, offering the same resources at the same price.
We have been in business for six years, and you all know that we don't operate that way.
Just send me a private message.
Thank you.
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lol
The regulations changing for NIS2, but not mandatory KYC. Not want to post everything AI tells me.
@AnthonySmith now that the provider is banned, shouldn't the banner ads be gone as well?
Well new system and a new system I did not anticipate this happening all at once so there is no precedent.
I have reached out directly, the subscription has already been cancelled but the advert was paid for in advance.
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Yeah I did not mean it in a bad way, sorry of it sounded like that
Thnx!
It sounded like LowEndTalk drama-making which I'm hoping to leave behind, so that was my downvote.
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No problem; it is a policy gap, and I need to address it.
The irony is not lost on me given the subject matter here; it would be a bit shit of me not to deliver the paid-for service regardless of the account status change.
Similarly, I am also happy to just refund; it's no problem.
The drama-free route.
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I wonder what happens to people in countries his chosen KYC verifier does not support but who still provided their real info...
Besides the basement datacenter accusations from back on OGF, I really don't see what's wrong with C1V Hosting. I've had a service with them for a while and never had serious downtime, and both administrative hiccups I ran into (an early invoice due to mixing up monthly and triennial payment, and a suspension due to running a Tor node which was lifted when I explained that it's a middle and not an exit) were dealt with quickly.
I mean they aren't premium but there are plenty of "reputable" hosts I've had worse experiences with.
Not defending, just curious.
you are no better period.
I bench YABS 24/7/365 unless it's a leap year.
thanks!
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I guess @mikho got new material for the blog
I have decided to use my server's resources to their maximum potential until Dasabo terminates my client account.
datalix's aff #1 fan
First of all: I'm one of the users that got the E-Mail to do KYC. I've got fully accurate details in my account when signed up. Why should I (and all others who just filled in correct information) be penalized if a provider suddenly (after taking money) decides to change the way he checks stuff?
Secondly: Only very selected parties are in several countries allowed to ask for a copy with a recognizable picture on their ID. If you want to check it? Come over here and I'll show you my ID. No issue. A copy? You can get one, but without picture or social security number.
Thirdly: You've decided to stick to your terms when people started asking about refunds. Not because you did from the beginning. There have been refunds due to this KYC situation. You know it.
Fourthly, he was banned as he received so many downvotes (it's a feature), so he can't reply. I suggest emailing directly or opening a ticket.
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It was more meant as reading material for other "victims" - also I know almost for sure that he'll read forums anyway.
What happened? How did our flawless Dasabo host get banned？where r its loyal little pups?
I'd just like to say that as I went to clean up the box for such unworldly duties, I noticed I'd setup a logger nearly 2 years ago to document the CPU steal.
The CPU steal for my VM has been at an average of ~20%. For the last 2 years. :O!
datalix's aff #1 fan
Personally I think it was a mistake to ban him, it takes away any opportunity to communicate, VirMach is a rough example.
I think I am going to have to review the system, maybe either increase the threshold or change the action.
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It was his communication that got him banned in the first place tho.
so say we all
Yeah but he was communicating at least, idk maybe I am wrong, it just felt a little sudden and over the top.
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I'm just trying to say that it was of his own doing, you shouldn't feel bad about it.
so say we all
If I may say so, I'm inclined to think that letting the angry mob people decide these things isn't necessarily the best approach
In everyday life, an analogy would be letting the neighbors in your street decide whether you go to prison or not
I'm inclined to think that banning a user on a forum should be based on the user's having broken the rules of the forum
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
It certainly made me re-think voting against showing who downvotes; smells more of a pile-on than a genuine community decision...
what is this script ?
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What about have bans for horrible karma be more brief? A 3 day timeout will get the point across.
Yeah that's what I started thinking after this
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Those "neighbors" decide based on your statements, so mind what you say and you won't "go to prison". Also, is this "angry mob" in the room with us now?
so say we all
Yeah. I don't think all that many old hat are going to like the new generation of users.
You know that I'm supposed to be the insufferable cunt, right?
And I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.
I was going to chime in this exact sentiment. I don't think his actions were ban worthy, and that was never my intent by pointing out what I did. I personally just move on from his services. Perhaps he lacked in communicating what he was planning for KYC going forward, and his actions were a bit harsh and abrupt. It possibly could have been handled a bit better, but again I don't believe he did anything terribly ban worthy.
I was eating sardines before it was trendy.
This discussion certainly generated a lot of comments.
My take is that the problem isn't that KYC is now required, it's that its wasn't required before accepting payment and providing services and it is now required without a simple refund or offboarding mechanism. For providers, if you care about your brand, its probably cheaper in the long run to just provide a refund and move on. If your brand value is $0, then I guess it doesn't matter.
Because I don't know the specifics of the provider's ToS or previous rules, I will stop commenting on this issue beyond this level of detail to prevent conflating multiple topics.
A very interesting comment was this:
I would expect to at least get banned if I was threatening to steal someone's money in like 10 days.
so say we all
WADR, it's because he choose to continue engaging instead of thinking, "Mamma mia, I have-a been downvoted! Should-a I check-a my argument, eh?"
I think it's better if someone gets temporary banned, once there's excessive downvote e.g -5, -10, -15, -20, -25 for 24-72 hour depending on their user level
Yeah, I flip between the 2, but I really wonder if taking away someone's ability to respond is really the right move, when stopping them from selling has the desired effect anyway.
We could flip it so that host tags are auto-removed at -10 karma, and a ban does not happen until -50 globally.
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They could answer in own thread only.
A leaky bucket for the negative karma to eventually unban users after they have the time to repent?
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Thats a solid idea... Thanks!
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Well, that won't change its reputation. You can give 2nd chances, but a ban would income anyway, if the account owner doesnt change his mind.
That is completely reasonable to me, unless your TOS stated from the jump that KYC is possible, It should be an option to let one get pro-rated refund on the service they have if they wish to leave because they are not comfortable with KYC. EU is horrendous with this, it's the reason why Europe is falling behind when it comes to innovation, they go out of their way to put door stoppers everywhere.
Many providers do have "KYC possible" in ToS, but then:
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In Germany we apply Datenschutz. Its a very serious privacy law, that protects citizens. For example: no cameras in public property (even government is restricted!), no public filming. But it also applies to digital products.
I mention this because their brand name is "Dasabo" which is a German phrase. "Das Abo" which means "The Subscription".
Honestly this whole situation makes no sense, and in Germany people would have likely the right to chargeback or file a claim against the company to refund them.
Fun fact: this is a company that had an incident couple years ago, according to another forum, that an employee apparently stole cards from clients and billed them. I don't know the details exactly.
https://extahost.com/
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That might be coincidental, but I'm pretty sure Dasabo is just from the first two letters of his name(s) Davide Salvatore Boccone.
I was eating sardines before it was trendy.
Wow so my 3 AM reading is done.
So let me get this straight this company out of nowhere, decided to require KYC from its customers, gave them 10 days to complete it, and if they didn't terminated their service and refused to issue a refund?
I seriously hope everyone had backups. This is pretty wild.
And here I was thinking we asked for too much information. We ask for first name, last name, and country. We don't even require an address.
We have always been privacy focused tho. We don't even allow auto reccuring subscriptions and all transactions aren't completed on our site.
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You are right, about the KYC being in the TOS however, All your bulletpoints make sense as well, the TOS is often written in a legal language, but it would still mention at some point "KYC/Know your customer/Information" anything that if you read it sort of hits "we may". It is however correct, I am guilty of not reading TOS everytime, common who does, we all have been guilty of scrolling to the bottom, hit the accept and install Diablo (a)..
s/years/months and he never gave a plausible (imo) explanation though people were refunded appropriately as far as i know.
I ain’t reading all that, but I’m happy for you though. Or sorry that happened.
This might not be a bad idea.
Get bad karma and you will only be able to answer in your own thread, not start new ones and not reply in others. If your karma does not approve in a certain timespan, you will get banned. This would allow for a discussion to be held and it would give the user a possibility to see the errors of his way and possibly change and repent.
I like the "leaky bucket" idea too. Maybe combined with a three strike rule so that if you hit bad karma three times, the bucket stops leaking and you are permanently out.