The provider could likely take legal action against me, and while it’s not a guarantee that they could win anything from it, there’s enough there to discuss their options if they wanted to.
I should create an agreement with resellers to announce my intended course of action in such a case, moving forward.
So realistically, my liability here is potentially opening myself up for litigation from NexusBytes. That means one person could potentially give me trouble over it if he desired to.
I’d be willing to take that risk under the circumstances. Because I don’t anticipate legal action from NB. I’ll review the variables again, continue my attempts to reach the reseller, and if/when the time is right I’ll contact the customers and request their consent for the next step.
The extreme refusal to take minor legal risks doesn’t appear, to me, to be majorly helping corporations in America. There is continually plenty of legitimate litigation against them. The right thing to do is the right thing to do, whether it opens up risk or not. It’s fine to be calculated and not make large risks, which this isn’t (imagine the loss value that could be sought, it isn’t high), but never taking any isn’t brave or protecting anyone in the end is I suppose my point.
@jarland said:
Legal opinion seems to agree with two points:
The provider could likely take legal action against me, and while it’s not a guarantee that they could win anything from it, there’s enough there to discuss their options if they wanted to.
I should create an agreement with resellers to announce my intended course of action in such a case, moving forward.
So realistically, my liability here is potentially opening myself up for litigation from NexusBytes. That means one person could potentially give me trouble over it if he desired to.
I’d be willing to take that risk under the circumstances. Because I don’t anticipate legal action from NB. I’ll review the variables again, continue my attempts to reach the reseller, and if/when the time is right I’ll contact the customers and request their consent for the next step.
The extreme refusal to take minor legal risks doesn’t appear, to me, to be majorly helping corporations in America. There is continually plenty of legitimate litigation against them. The right thing to do is the right thing to do, whether it opens up risk or not. It’s fine to be calculated and not make large risks, which this isn’t (imagine the loss value that could be sought, it isn’t high), but never taking any isn’t brave or protecting anyone in the end is I suppose my point.
Probably so, but I think the risk is low enough to justify the convenience gain for everyone involved. There’s a very strong argument to be had which limits any claims to “damages” to a certain time frame, which when combined with the prices charged doesn’t really do much to pay for the filing of the paperwork to make the claim.
If I can’t reach the reseller I’d be willing to pay the reseller 2x the cost of all of their resold client’s renewal fees, which would be more than I propose could be reasonably claimed for an abandoned business, in the event of a complaint. I’d do that just to prevent everyone from having to migrate to a new service (or even to prevent them from asking me if I would do it for them).
Of course, the reseller still has time on this. But I don’t even think he’s still in the states.
@jarland said:
Legal opinion seems to agree with two points:
The provider could likely take legal action against me, and while it’s not a guarantee that they could win anything from it, there’s enough there to discuss their options if they wanted to.
I should create an agreement with resellers to announce my intended course of action in such a case, moving forward.
So realistically, my liability here is potentially opening myself up for litigation from NexusBytes. That means one person could potentially give me trouble over it if he desired to.
I’d be willing to take that risk under the circumstances. Because I don’t anticipate legal action from NB. I’ll review the variables again, continue my attempts to reach the reseller, and if/when the time is right I’ll contact the customers and request their consent for the next step.
The extreme refusal to take minor legal risks doesn’t appear, to me, to be majorly helping corporations in America. There is continually plenty of legitimate litigation against them. The right thing to do is the right thing to do, whether it opens up risk or not. It’s fine to be calculated and not make large risks, which this isn’t (imagine the loss value that could be sought, it isn’t high), but never taking any isn’t brave or protecting anyone in the end is I suppose my point.
Thinking aloud, if you publicly offered a refugee special and wait a little time to see if some existing NB customers voluntarily migrated across, would that be beneficial to you, since that way you're not poaching customers - instead, they're knowingly opting into taking service from you direct?
Would have a secondary beneficial effect in that you could them determine how many ex-NB users are remaining in the pool, and then you could work out if you could be bothered exposing yourself to any potential litigation should you decide to migrate these users from NB?
I should create an agreement with resellers to announce my intended course of action in such a case, moving forward.
Agreed. It would be good to nut this out (as you are), cause then you have a prepared strategy ready and waiting for the next reseller-deadpool... If anything, it's a value-add for resellers and reseller's customers alike.
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
@jarland said:
Legal opinion seems to agree with two points:
The provider could likely take legal action against me, and while it’s not a guarantee that they could win anything from it, there’s enough there to discuss their options if they wanted to.
I should create an agreement with resellers to announce my intended course of action in such a case, moving forward.
I would have (naively) thought that in general, you can/could realistically expect a reseller of yours to be reactive to your queries concerning the product resold and/or their managing of the product resold
By the way, if I may ask, how do you handle cases of spammers that are customers of a reseller of yours? I imagined that you (also) get in touch with the reseller in such cases
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
@jarland said: Of course, the reseller still has time on this. But I don’t even think he’s still in the states.
A question for anyone who might know: is the reseller still alive (and not in a coma or suffering from dementia)?
Not sure if this applies in the US, but if NB had to file legal (publicly accessible) records in a certain interval, these records not being submitted might be an indication for the latter. E.g. I remember for UK businesses you can see if they filed satement xy or whether it is overdue iirc.
I think the key point is you don't want to be seen as poaching (or directly approaching) the users from NB ?
Do many NB users use the web interface rather than just smtp/imap ? - if they use the web interface, why not put a message/banner just for them.
Let the NB user create a new account (with same conditions).
A user should be free to use whatever provider they wish and have more than one account, the only problem is letting the user know there is an alternative. It is not poaching, it is advertising.
Of course if this is completely 'white label' then I appreciate the difficulty.
@jarland said:
Legal opinion seems to agree with two points:
The provider could likely take legal action against me, and while it’s not a guarantee that they could win anything from it, there’s enough there to discuss their options if they wanted to.
I should create an agreement with resellers to announce my intended course of action in such a case, moving forward.
So realistically, my liability here is potentially opening myself up for litigation from NexusBytes. That means one person could potentially give me trouble over it if he desired to.
I’d be willing to take that risk under the circumstances. Because I don’t anticipate legal action from NB. I’ll review the variables again, continue my attempts to reach the reseller, and if/when the time is right I’ll contact the customers and request their consent for the next step.
@jarland - If you open yourself to liabilities, risks and circumstances it's not just about the legal implications, it's also about your image as a company. How will you expect other providers to take your business serious in future if you take away someone else's customer accounts when shit hits the fan? The very fact that you even dare to think this, means a disrespect towards their business. Don't do it.
Yes, you care about the customers. Yes, you care about the end user. Yes, you have a good heart. But the end does not justify the means. You are not allowed to interfere into another business, it's customers, it's privacy, it's management, or it's legal value (bankrupt, abandoned, deadpooled, and so on). Think about your trust as a provider towards future resellers. This is just not right.
The extreme refusal to take minor legal risks doesn’t appear, to me, to be majorly helping corporations in America. There is continually plenty of legitimate litigation against them. The right thing to do is the right thing to do, whether it opens up risk or not. It’s fine to be calculated and not make large risks, which this isn’t (imagine the loss value that could be sought, it isn’t high), but never taking any isn’t brave or protecting anyone in the end is I suppose my point.
Yes, it might seem as the right thing to do from an emotional perspective; but it's also about you standing tall in the world of business. You should not take any action regarding existing accounts, because you have no right to do this. You know your rights, and that is great. Don't abuse your rights, because it's not just about money; it's also about MXRoute image in this whole endeavour.
The best solution is to give extra time to the problematic provider (if you can afford it from a business perspective) then create your own Black Refugee offer on a separate server for people who want to recreate their email accounts and still taste MXRoute. Whoever takes that offer: fine. Whoever does not: also fine. But you are not allowed to even touch their existing data at NexusBytes, or even look at their data without their consent as well as NexusBytes consent. The damage has insanely more impact to your trust, more than just stupid money or legal feels.
Do not destroy the MXRoute image you worked so hard to build, just because another business fails and some customers started whining. Businesses rise and businesses fall; empires rise and empires fall; customers will always whine even if an offer is too good to be true. Don't fall in such trap, or you will fall too. I hate you as a person, but I like you as a business man for what you did with MXRoute. For the love of our universe: do not endanger the business you have worked so hard to build, all for the sake of a snowflake generation! Be smart! Play smart!
TL;DR - Stay away! Don't drag yourself into this mess.
@chris said:
Legality aside, there's two sides of the internet witch hunt! It's damaging to your brand if you dont act, because you dont care! and > You're a big nasty poacher that steals customers if you do!
If mxroute is resold to another provider though, is it really damaging to the mxroute brand if that other provide goes under? there's no way @jarland could have foreseen nb going under nor does he have any obligation to nb's customer base. If customers want the legendary mxroute support they can buy direct
I mean jumping the gun on it in that scenario! Personally, I think the writing has been on the wall for a while and find it hilarious that people have been in denial for so long!
I'm not Jar's client so whatever happens is cool with me, merely offering my thoughts on the matter from a business/seeing idiots try to start drama online perspective! I have a lot of respect for him wanting to get provisions in place for something that's not legally his responsibility and a lot of providers could/should take note of his behaviour and try to learn some things
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@chris said:
Legality aside, there's two sides of the internet witch hunt! It's damaging to your brand if you dont act, because you dont care! and > You're a big nasty poacher that steals customers if you do!
If mxroute is resold to another provider though, is it really damaging to the mxroute brand if that other provide goes under? there's no way @jarland could have foreseen nb going under nor does he have any obligation to nb's customer base. If customers want the legendary mxroute support they can buy direct
I mean jumping the gun on it in that scenario! Personally, I think the writing has been on the wall for a while and find it hilarious that people have been in denial for so long!
I'm not Jar's client so whatever happens is cool with me, merely offering my thoughts on the matter from a business/seeing idiots try to start drama online perspective! I have a lot of respect for him wanting to get provisions in place for something that's not legally his responsibility and a lot of providers could/should take note of his behaviour and try to learn some things
Learn what?
how to disrespect and abuse the law, because the fees and fines of law are acceptable?
how it's better to steal clients instead of simply buying the failing business?
how to emotionally justify illegal absorption of clients by using kindness as argument?
how to show lack of care towards your resellers regarding their business management?
how to show lack of care towards your resellers regarding their privacy?
I understand the good heart, but it's a wild world out there with mutual respect from all businesses. The best way is to simply make a good offer, hoping for the clients to take it and come to you. As provider for other resellers you could also be kind and offer some extra time for potential clients to take upon your offer, by leaving the existing resell account active a little longer, even if not paid by the deadpooling reseller.
Another option would be to make another reseller (of your choice) a really good offer, so they can make a great offer for the refugees in return. This way you avoid the support overhead, as well as helping other businesses grow by taking more clients. Something like this increases respect between businesses.
@chris said:
Legality aside, there's two sides of the internet witch hunt! It's damaging to your brand if you dont act, because you dont care! and > You're a big nasty poacher that steals customers if you do!
If mxroute is resold to another provider though, is it really damaging to the mxroute brand if that other provide goes under? there's no way @jarland could have foreseen nb going under nor does he have any obligation to nb's customer base. If customers want the legendary mxroute support they can buy direct
I mean jumping the gun on it in that scenario! Personally, I think the writing has been on the wall for a while and find it hilarious that people have been in denial for so long!
I'm not Jar's client so whatever happens is cool with me, merely offering my thoughts on the matter from a business/seeing idiots try to start drama online perspective! I have a lot of respect for him wanting to get provisions in place for something that's not legally his responsibility and a lot of providers could/should take note of his behaviour and try to learn some things
Learn what?
how to disrespect and abuse the law, because the fees and fines of law are acceptable?
how it's better to steal clients instead of simply buying the failing business?
how to emotionally justify illegal absorption of clients by using kindness as argument?
how to show lack of care towards your resellers regarding their business management?
how to show lack of care towards your resellers regarding their privacy?
I understand the good heart, but it's a wild world out there with mutual respect from all businesses. The best way is to simply make a good offer, hoping for the clients to take it and come to you. As provider for other resellers you could also be kind and offer some extra time for potential clients to take upon your offer, by leaving the existing resell account active a little longer, even if not paid by the deadpooling reseller.
Another option would be to make another reseller (of your choice) a really good offer, so they can make a great offer for the refugees in return. This way you avoid the support overhead, as well as helping other businesses grow by taking more clients. Something like this increases respect between businesses.
Well when it's sold as a mxroute reseller - it ultimately ends up as drama. How on earth is an offer supposed to be tabled when Jay has been hiding underneath said table for nearly 2 years?
Also aside from the initial rant where you completely missed the point and just went full forum warrior on the last sentence, you pretty much just expanded what I said initially. So I'll leave it there unless you have another point?
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@chris said:
Well when it's sold as a mxroute reseller - it ultimately ends up as drama. How on earth is an offer supposed to be tabled when Jay has been hiding underneath said table for nearly 2 years?
Drama is unavoidable. Any downfall of any provider ends up in drama. Customers do not like any disturbance in their service, and in my humble opinion this is perfectly normal. If Jay has been hiding, I can't comment, it's his decision. Any beginning must have an end at some point, because everything is relative as Einstein noted. It's sad, but true.
However, we can continue the low-end fun with other offers from different providers, while also having some informed grace period to move our data if possible.
It is great if we are on the same page. I don't want to be full warrior, but there is a reason why businesses don't go stealing clients or data of other businesses (resellers included): it's called respect. I would love to see a drama turn into a Black Friday offer of helping refugees - this would mean turning something negative into a positive hype.
For the MXroute reseller account, I'd suggest this solution:
Do nothing as long as the reseller account is still paid up to date.
As soon as the reseller account expires, for the next 7 days:
Don't delete any data.
Still accept incoming email.
Disable outgoing email, with an error message linking to a webpage.
Show the same error message on DirectAdmin and webmail.
The webpage indicates that the reseller account is not paid, so that outgoing email has been disabled.
The customer must sign up with the same domain at MXroute direct or another reseller of their choosing (no need to list any, they'll do their searching).
When they sign up with one of the domains, they are prompted to sign in to the existing DirectAdmin account.
If they authenticate successfully, the existing DirectAdmin account is moved under the new reseller.
Quotas of the new plan are applied to the existing account.
If the usage exceeds new quotas, sending is still disabled until they delete enough content or upgrade to higher plan.
Those who didn't sign up at new reseller within 7 days are permanently deleted.
@AuroraZero said:
Imma be the next to Deadpool. Seems like a smashing good romp through da forest.
Isn't yeti afraid of all the lawyers and all the courts who could come and take away yeti's cave with all the servers yeti had inside?
Fuck em if they can find my cave and get inside still have to deal with me. Lawyers sre kind of like field mice squash one and fifty more show. Good thing I like eating field mice.
Last time I dealt with a judge he was not happy with me because I know how to read. Just asked one simple question is all.
@angstrom said: By the way, if I may ask, how do you handle cases of spammers that are customers of a reseller of yours? I imagined that you (also) get in touch with the reseller in such cases
If they're obvious career spammers that shouldn't have made it in at all, I just terminate them and notify the reseller not to let them back in. If they're good people making a bad judgement call I suspend the user and open a ticket with the reseller. Same if compromised but then I only suspend the compromised email account.
@root said: Do not destroy the MXRoute image you worked so hard to build
I appreciate your position and I take it under advisement. I do disagree that it's damaging to image, I think the reseller and friend in this case would want me to do right by his customers. Customers who have been under my care the entire time. That's just my perspective, yours is just as welcome.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
@root said: Do not destroy the MXRoute image you worked so hard to build
I appreciate your position and I take it under advisement. I do disagree that it's damaging to image, I think the reseller and friend in this case would want me to do right by his customers.
Do you have a written contract, an agreement, or some form of written consent for doing this "right" thing? (Please do not show this publicly, I am just curious if you have it.)
@root said: Do not destroy the MXRoute image you worked so hard to build
I appreciate your position and I take it under advisement. I do disagree that it's damaging to image, I think the reseller and friend in this case would want me to do right by his customers.
Do you have a written contract, an agreement, or some form of written consent for doing this "right" thing?
I have no written contract for any agreement at all. The only agreement is a digital month to month service contract, most of the details for which are assumed by a handshake agreement and any relevant laws that will apply to that.
@root said: Do not destroy the MXRoute image you worked so hard to build
I appreciate your position and I take it under advisement. I do disagree that it's damaging to image, I think the reseller and friend in this case would want me to do right by his customers.
Do you have a written contract, an agreement, or some form of written consent for doing this "right" thing?
I have no written contract for any agreement at all. The only agreement is a digital month to month service contract, most of the details for which are assumed by a handshake agreement and any relevant laws that will apply to that.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that handshake agreement was not for the control of customers, or their personal details, or their billing details, or their data. It was a handshake for providing just an email reseller plan to the reseller.
@root said: Do not destroy the MXRoute image you worked so hard to build
I appreciate your position and I take it under advisement. I do disagree that it's damaging to image, I think the reseller and friend in this case would want me to do right by his customers.
Do you have a written contract, an agreement, or some form of written consent for doing this "right" thing?
I have no written contract for any agreement at all. The only agreement is a digital month to month service contract, most of the details for which are assumed by a handshake agreement and any relevant laws that will apply to that.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that handshake agreement was not for the control of customers, or their personal details, or their billing details, or their data. It was a handshake for providing just an email reseller plan to the reseller.
Once the account is past due the agreement is null and void. I’m only using data I already oversee. The contact email is in user.conf, which the resellers billing system passed over API to my server.
I’m not obtaining or using anything that wasn’t given to me by consent of the user, as their service provider, regardless of that being somewhat indirect. Most if not all of the reseller’s customers chose the reseller for offering plans that I don’t, with full knowledge that they were signing up for MXroute. I think the actual users will appreciate my effort, and they’ll be given a chance to decline it.
@jarland said: Of course, the reseller still has time on this. But I don’t even think he’s still in the states.
A question for anyone who might know: is the reseller still alive (and not in a coma or suffering from dementia)?
When I messaged him about this he was logged into Facebook messenger. I haven’t seen him logged in since, so either he turned off the ability to see that or he hasn’t been on anymore. His last post was Aug 11. His last reply to me was Nov 8. I believe he is no longer in the US.
@root said: Do not destroy the MXRoute image you worked so hard to build
I appreciate your position and I take it under advisement. I do disagree that it's damaging to image, I think the reseller and friend in this case would want me to do right by his customers.
Do you have a written contract, an agreement, or some form of written consent for doing this "right" thing?
I have no written contract for any agreement at all. The only agreement is a digital month to month service contract, most of the details for which are assumed by a handshake agreement and any relevant laws that will apply to that.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that handshake agreement was not for the control of customers, or their personal details, or their billing details, or their data. It was a handshake for providing just an email reseller plan to the reseller.
Once the account is past due the agreement is null and void.
If an agreement is void and null, it is so from both sides.
I’m only using data I already oversee.
This data does not belong to you. You have absolutely no rights because the agreement is null, therefore there are no grounds for you having it, or holding it, or overseeing it, or reading it, or manipulating it. Such data should not exist, because the foundations are nulled and voided.
The contact email is in user.conf, which the resellers billing system passed over API to my server.
Great. Now you must decide if you keep the service up for reseller as courtesy, waiting for payment, or if you shutdown and delete everything for which you have no grounds to hold as yours.
I’m not obtaining or using anything that wasn’t given to me by consent of the user, as their service provider, regardless of that being somewhat indirect. Most if not all of the reseller’s customers chose the reseller for offering plans that I don’t, with full knowledge that they were signing up for MXroute. I think the actual users will appreciate my effort, and they’ll be given a chance to decline it.
It seems you really have to set yourself some grounds about where your jurisdiction begins and where it ends. If I buy a reseller plan with intention of reselling, where does your property begin and where does it end?
Where do your rights begin? Where do they end? Where my right as reseller begins? and where it ends? Usually these things are pretty clear as one can not touch a data without owner's consent (in this case reseller consent because he is the owner in your contract), but it seems you want these things to be blurry, and what was once the contract of a reseller, becomes yours simply because of a payment. So... what was actually yours to begin with? Reseller clients are automatically your clients? Reseller's business is actually your business? You get to have a saying on how a reseller manages his business, and how people own and manage their data, even though no contract is between consumer and you directly?
Where your jurisdiction begins and where it ends? When your jurisdiction begins and when it ends? this is very blurry from what you say.
If you feel that I am violating your legal rights, I would advise you to have your lawyer reach out. I do not intend to discuss every future theoretical scenario, I have reviewed this situation for what it is and made a judgement call for this situation. Nothing more.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
@jarland said:
If you feel that I am violating your legal rights, I would advise you to have your lawyer reach out. I do not intend to discuss every future theoretical scenario, I have reviewed this situation for what it is and made a judgement call for this situation. Nothing more.
As you wish. I am just expressing my opinion because I use your service and I care about what services I use. Feel free to completely ignore me
@jarland maybe this could be interesting to you (or anyone seeking legal advice): JustAnswer is sort of similar to YourExpert here in Germany. With JustAnswer you can ask lawyers/tax accountants for advice pretty straight forward: https://www.justanswer.com/
Comments
Legal opinion seems to agree with two points:
The provider could likely take legal action against me, and while it’s not a guarantee that they could win anything from it, there’s enough there to discuss their options if they wanted to.
I should create an agreement with resellers to announce my intended course of action in such a case, moving forward.
So realistically, my liability here is potentially opening myself up for litigation from NexusBytes. That means one person could potentially give me trouble over it if he desired to.
I’d be willing to take that risk under the circumstances. Because I don’t anticipate legal action from NB. I’ll review the variables again, continue my attempts to reach the reseller, and if/when the time is right I’ll contact the customers and request their consent for the next step.
The extreme refusal to take minor legal risks doesn’t appear, to me, to be majorly helping corporations in America. There is continually plenty of legitimate litigation against them. The right thing to do is the right thing to do, whether it opens up risk or not. It’s fine to be calculated and not make large risks, which this isn’t (imagine the loss value that could be sought, it isn’t high), but never taking any isn’t brave or protecting anyone in the end is I suppose my point.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
i think refugee offers are much safer innit
I bench YABS 24/7/365 unless it's a leap year.
Probably so, but I think the risk is low enough to justify the convenience gain for everyone involved. There’s a very strong argument to be had which limits any claims to “damages” to a certain time frame, which when combined with the prices charged doesn’t really do much to pay for the filing of the paperwork to make the claim.
If I can’t reach the reseller I’d be willing to pay the reseller 2x the cost of all of their resold client’s renewal fees, which would be more than I propose could be reasonably claimed for an abandoned business, in the event of a complaint. I’d do that just to prevent everyone from having to migrate to a new service (or even to prevent them from asking me if I would do it for them).
Of course, the reseller still has time on this. But I don’t even think he’s still in the states.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
Thinking aloud, if you publicly offered a refugee special and wait a little time to see if some existing NB customers voluntarily migrated across, would that be beneficial to you, since that way you're not poaching customers - instead, they're knowingly opting into taking service from you direct?
Would have a secondary beneficial effect in that you could them determine how many ex-NB users are remaining in the pool, and then you could work out if you could be bothered exposing yourself to any potential litigation should you decide to migrate these users from NB?
Agreed. It would be good to nut this out (as you are), cause then you have a prepared strategy ready and waiting for the next reseller-deadpool... If anything, it's a value-add for resellers and reseller's customers alike.
Curious, what NB locations are you the upstream host? @jarland
The all seeing eye sees everything...
Just email plans.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
A question for anyone who might know: is the reseller still alive (and not in a coma or suffering from dementia)?
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
I would have (naively) thought that in general, you can/could realistically expect a reseller of yours to be reactive to your queries concerning the product resold and/or their managing of the product resold
By the way, if I may ask, how do you handle cases of spammers that are customers of a reseller of yours? I imagined that you (also) get in touch with the reseller in such cases
"A single swap file or partition may be up to 128 MB in size. [...] [I]f you need 256 MB of swap, you can create two 128-MB swap partitions." (M. Welsh & L. Kaufman, Running Linux, 2e, 1996, p. 49)
Not sure if this applies in the US, but if NB had to file legal (publicly accessible) records in a certain interval, these records not being submitted might be an indication for the latter. E.g. I remember for UK businesses you can see if they filed satement xy or whether it is overdue iirc.
Ympker's VPN LTD Comparison, Uptime.is, Ympker's GitHub.
I think the key point is you don't want to be seen as poaching (or directly approaching) the users from NB ?
Do many NB users use the web interface rather than just smtp/imap ? - if they use the web interface, why not put a message/banner just for them.
Let the NB user create a new account (with same conditions).
A user should be free to use whatever provider they wish and have more than one account, the only problem is letting the user know there is an alternative. It is not poaching, it is advertising.
Of course if this is completely 'white label' then I appreciate the difficulty.
@jarland - If you open yourself to liabilities, risks and circumstances it's not just about the legal implications, it's also about your image as a company. How will you expect other providers to take your business serious in future if you take away someone else's customer accounts when shit hits the fan? The very fact that you even dare to think this, means a disrespect towards their business. Don't do it.
Yes, you care about the customers. Yes, you care about the end user. Yes, you have a good heart. But the end does not justify the means. You are not allowed to interfere into another business, it's customers, it's privacy, it's management, or it's legal value (bankrupt, abandoned, deadpooled, and so on). Think about your trust as a provider towards future resellers. This is just not right.
Yes, it might seem as the right thing to do from an emotional perspective; but it's also about you standing tall in the world of business. You should not take any action regarding existing accounts, because you have no right to do this. You know your rights, and that is great. Don't abuse your rights, because it's not just about money; it's also about MXRoute image in this whole endeavour.
The best solution is to give extra time to the problematic provider (if you can afford it from a business perspective) then create your own Black Refugee offer on a separate server for people who want to recreate their email accounts and still taste MXRoute. Whoever takes that offer: fine. Whoever does not: also fine. But you are not allowed to even touch their existing data at NexusBytes, or even look at their data without their consent as well as NexusBytes consent. The damage has insanely more impact to your trust, more than just stupid money or legal feels.
Do not destroy the MXRoute image you worked so hard to build, just because another business fails and some customers started whining. Businesses rise and businesses fall; empires rise and empires fall; customers will always whine even if an offer is too good to be true. Don't fall in such trap, or you will fall too. I hate you as a person, but I like you as a business man for what you did with MXRoute. For the love of our universe: do not endanger the business you have worked so hard to build, all for the sake of a snowflake generation! Be smart! Play smart!
TL;DR - Stay away! Don't drag yourself into this mess.
I mean jumping the gun on it in that scenario! Personally, I think the writing has been on the wall for a while and find it hilarious that people have been in denial for so long!
I'm not Jar's client so whatever happens is cool with me, merely offering my thoughts on the matter from a business/seeing idiots try to start drama online perspective! I have a lot of respect for him wanting to get provisions in place for something that's not legally his responsibility and a lot of providers could/should take note of his behaviour and try to learn some things
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Learn what?
I understand the good heart, but it's a wild world out there with mutual respect from all businesses. The best way is to simply make a good offer, hoping for the clients to take it and come to you. As provider for other resellers you could also be kind and offer some extra time for potential clients to take upon your offer, by leaving the existing resell account active a little longer, even if not paid by the deadpooling reseller.
Another option would be to make another reseller (of your choice) a really good offer, so they can make a great offer for the refugees in return. This way you avoid the support overhead, as well as helping other businesses grow by taking more clients. Something like this increases respect between businesses.
https://clip.cafe/john-wick-2014/have-thought-through/
Well when it's sold as a mxroute reseller - it ultimately ends up as drama. How on earth is an offer supposed to be tabled when Jay has been hiding underneath said table for nearly 2 years?
Also aside from the initial rant where you completely missed the point and just went full forum warrior on the last sentence, you pretty much just expanded what I said initially. So I'll leave it there unless you have another point?
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Drama is unavoidable. Any downfall of any provider ends up in drama. Customers do not like any disturbance in their service, and in my humble opinion this is perfectly normal. If Jay has been hiding, I can't comment, it's his decision. Any beginning must have an end at some point, because everything is relative as Einstein noted. It's sad, but true.
However, we can continue the low-end fun with other offers from different providers, while also having some informed grace period to move our data if possible.
It is great if we are on the same page. I don't want to be full warrior, but there is a reason why businesses don't go stealing clients or data of other businesses (resellers included): it's called respect. I would love to see a drama turn into a Black Friday offer of helping refugees - this would mean turning something negative into a positive hype.
Imma be the next to Deadpool. Seems like a smashing good romp through da forest.
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For the MXroute reseller account, I'd suggest this solution:
The customer must sign up with the same domain at MXroute direct or another reseller of their choosing (no need to list any, they'll do their searching).
If they authenticate successfully, the existing DirectAdmin account is moved under the new reseller.
If the usage exceeds new quotas, sending is still disabled until they delete enough content or upgrade to higher plan.
HostBrr aff best VPS; VirmAche aff worst VPS.
Unable to push-up due to shoulder injury 😣
Isn't yeti afraid of all the lawyers and all the courts who could come and take away yeti's cave with all the servers yeti had inside?
Fuck em if they can find my cave and get inside still have to deal with me. Lawyers sre kind of like field mice squash one and fifty more show. Good thing I like eating field mice.
Last time I dealt with a judge he was not happy with me because I know how to read. Just asked one simple question is all.
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If they're obvious career spammers that shouldn't have made it in at all, I just terminate them and notify the reseller not to let them back in. If they're good people making a bad judgement call I suspend the user and open a ticket with the reseller. Same if compromised but then I only suspend the compromised email account.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
I appreciate your position and I take it under advisement. I do disagree that it's damaging to image, I think the reseller and friend in this case would want me to do right by his customers. Customers who have been under my care the entire time. That's just my perspective, yours is just as welcome.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
Do you have a written contract, an agreement, or some form of written consent for doing this "right" thing? (Please do not show this publicly, I am just curious if you have it.)
I have no written contract for any agreement at all. The only agreement is a digital month to month service contract, most of the details for which are assumed by a handshake agreement and any relevant laws that will apply to that.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that handshake agreement was not for the control of customers, or their personal details, or their billing details, or their data. It was a handshake for providing just an email reseller plan to the reseller.
Once the account is past due the agreement is null and void. I’m only using data I already oversee. The contact email is in user.conf, which the resellers billing system passed over API to my server.
I’m not obtaining or using anything that wasn’t given to me by consent of the user, as their service provider, regardless of that being somewhat indirect. Most if not all of the reseller’s customers chose the reseller for offering plans that I don’t, with full knowledge that they were signing up for MXroute. I think the actual users will appreciate my effort, and they’ll be given a chance to decline it.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
When I messaged him about this he was logged into Facebook messenger. I haven’t seen him logged in since, so either he turned off the ability to see that or he hasn’t been on anymore. His last post was Aug 11. His last reply to me was Nov 8. I believe he is no longer in the US.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
If an agreement is void and null, it is so from both sides.
This data does not belong to you. You have absolutely no rights because the agreement is null, therefore there are no grounds for you having it, or holding it, or overseeing it, or reading it, or manipulating it. Such data should not exist, because the foundations are nulled and voided.
Great. Now you must decide if you keep the service up for reseller as courtesy, waiting for payment, or if you shutdown and delete everything for which you have no grounds to hold as yours.
It seems you really have to set yourself some grounds about where your jurisdiction begins and where it ends. If I buy a reseller plan with intention of reselling, where does your property begin and where does it end?
Where do your rights begin? Where do they end? Where my right as reseller begins? and where it ends? Usually these things are pretty clear as one can not touch a data without owner's consent (in this case reseller consent because he is the owner in your contract), but it seems you want these things to be blurry, and what was once the contract of a reseller, becomes yours simply because of a payment. So... what was actually yours to begin with? Reseller clients are automatically your clients? Reseller's business is actually your business? You get to have a saying on how a reseller manages his business, and how people own and manage their data, even though no contract is between consumer and you directly?
Where your jurisdiction begins and where it ends? When your jurisdiction begins and when it ends? this is very blurry from what you say.
If you feel that I am violating your legal rights, I would advise you to have your lawyer reach out. I do not intend to discuss every future theoretical scenario, I have reviewed this situation for what it is and made a judgement call for this situation. Nothing more.
Do everything as though everyone you’ll ever know is watching.
As you wish. I am just expressing my opinion because I use your service and I care about what services I use. Feel free to completely ignore me
@jarland maybe this could be interesting to you (or anyone seeking legal advice): JustAnswer is sort of similar to YourExpert here in Germany. With JustAnswer you can ask lawyers/tax accountants for advice pretty straight forward: https://www.justanswer.com/
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